Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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I just received this press release. I guess the ASCS didn't go over too big with the PA. fans....so much for the ASCS 360's saving promoters and tracks by keeping down the costs while providing the kind of racing fans want to see...yep, that Emmett sure is a visionary. I wonder if any tracks that participated in the Keystone Cup 410 series are in this position. JMO...but I think we may be seeing a national trend starting.

Newberrytown, PA (May 29, 2007) – A soft economy resulting in less disposable income for family entertainment, rising gas prices and business miscues have left Todd and Rhonda Fisher, the owners of the Susquehanna Speedway Park, to make some tough decisions to reorganize the remainder of the 2007 racing events schedule.  Racing will continue at the 54 year old speedway, which just celebrated its 100^th race event a few weeks ago under the direction of the Fishers, but it will be scaled back to one night of weekly racing along with special events throughout the season.  Many of the events already scheduled will remain unchanged.

SSP will continue racing every Saturday night with strong support from the Late Models, Street Stocks and Xtreme Stock Cars.  Other divisions such as the Legends Cars, Classic Cars, Penn Mar Vintage Cars, Women on Wheels Stock Cars, Four Cylinder Stock Cars, Mini Vans and School Buses will be rotated on Saturdays.  All previously announced point funds and awards for the Late Models, Street Stocks and Xtreme Stocks will stay intact with no changes.

The added ARDC Midget races on Saturday, July 21 and September 15 are unconfirmed at this time until a representative from the club can be contacted and confirm the dates.

Todd Fisher stated, “I want to emphasize that we are not giving up on the ASCS Sprints or the Super Sportsman, we are just going to take a very close look at what can be done to give them a place to race without putting the speedway in a deficit that it could not recover from.  We want to come up with something that both the teams and the tracks can live with.  At this time, it appears that we need to develop special events for both of these classes rather than focusing on weekly racing for them.”

“In terms of the Super Sportsman, we do not have the opportunity to wait until the end of the year or into next season for the support of this class to improve.  With the ASCS Sprints, there are too many adverse factors in the Central PA area at this time to grow the series successfully on a weekly basis.  We are still totaling committed and believe in the ASCS national program.”   

The future events at SSP will not be announced for the ASCS Sprints and Super Sportsman until Mr. Fisher can speak directly with Emmett Hahn, the President of the ASCS, and the supporting Super Sportsman teams later this week.  The Super Sportsman may or may not be included in this weekend’s scheduled activities depending on these discussions with the current supporters.

With the numerous racing events lost to the cold and rain this season, the Saturday night events will carry a raindate for the next day, Sunday, as long as there is not an event already planned for that night.  The start time for Saturdays will be 7:00 p.m. and if a Sunday raindate is utilized, the start time will be 6:00 p.m.

This Saturday night, June 2, SSP will feature the Late Models, Street Stocks, Xtreme Stock Cars and Mini Vans.  Also on the card will be the One-on-One Street Car Drags paying $250.00 to win.  Entry forms are available at sspracing.net or by calling 717-292-1696.

General Admission Grandstand ticket prices for Saturday night will be Adults and Teens (13 & older) $12.00; Children (12 & under) are free.  Pit pass prices are $20.00 with a reduced price of $18.00 for all pit competitor license holders.    The minimum age requirement to purchase a pit pass is 14 years of age with a copy of a birth certificate is required for all ages 14 to 17. 

The pit gates will open 4:30 p.m. on Saturday. Grandstand gates will open at 5:00 p.m.  Warmups begin at 6:30 p.m. with qualifying races at 7:00 p.m. followed by last chance consolation races and feature events.    

The rain-postponed Memorial Day Spectacular from Sunday night, May 27 has been rescheduled for Sunday, August 19.  The racing classes include the Central PA 358 Sprint Cars, ARDC Midgets and Legends Cars.  The 20-lap 358 Sprint Car feature event will be presented by Hoosier Tire Mid-Atlantic from Finksburg, Maryland paying $1,200 to the winner.  Hoosier Tires will be the only tire permitted on all four corners of the car.  Mufflers are not required for the 358 Sprint Cars only.    Both pit and grandstand rainchecks may be used from May 27 at any race during the next three weeks (until Saturday, June 16) or for the race on Sunday, August 19.  Since no cars were able to qualify before the rains hit the speedway, new entries for the race on August 19 will be permitted. 

The Susquehanna Speedway Park is located off I-83 to exit 32, then 1.4 miles NW on SR382 to York Road, then 1.3 miles south.  For more information, contact the speedway offices at (717) 292-1696 or visit online at sspracing.net.  On raceday, use the track phone at (717) 938-9170 for up-to-date information

No big shocker for those with any common sense. We don't need for racing to be "fixed" in central pa. It's not broken. All of the gimmicks and circus acts in the world won't put butts in the stands, 410s do, and he has run those off. 358s are not the answer either. Out of the 70 + 358 teams he only had 28 on Sunday. Each week the number goes down as "newness" wears off etc. Bottom line, you can bring in all of the strong back-gate classes you want, but if you treat the drivers and fans like trash, they won't return...

Sounds like somebody's still pissed off about losing their Chili Bowl credentials...CZ

Nope CZ...I've been talking about this for years now. I've done shows where we have discussed this issue on many occasions. As much smarter people than I have stated...fans aren't going to turn out to support 360's, th cost factors between 410's/360's aren't as big a difference as some would like you to believe, the racing is diluted (Karl Kinser's quote). Look at the uproar recently about comments made from Knoxville...360's are NOT the answer. I don't care how many of them are out there. This has all been discussed before.

inconsistencies in track prep, rulings and policies that overshadow the racing action...the management style has been criticized on numerous occaisions.

i do not have first hand knowledge of any specific incident that soured things...but rather a series of gaffes that have muddied the waters for fans and competitors alike.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

John : you take one press release from one track that has run off all it's 410 teams and fans, and from this you draw the conclusion that ASCS is on a downhill trend. Could it be that you have an agenda with ASCS or are you really that stupid ?

I think the time is coming when you'll see 410's make a comeback. Well, maybe not just 410's, but more open competition. Tires are the key. Put a hard enough RR tire and maybe even have a LR tire rule, too. Maybe this will take the need for more and more horsepower away and make the cars harder to hook up. It goes back to what Dave Blaney said at last year's Unified Sprint Car Summit, "It's not about 410's, it's not about 360's. It's about sprint car racing."

I just don't buy Emmett's philosophy. He's chased out 410's in the mid-south but there are things in the works that will reverse the trend over the next couple of years. He got a lot of promoters to buy into his idea that sprint car racing was too expensive for the tracks, so what he's done is find a way to lower the purse without addressing the real problem...paying customers. The end result, in most cases, has been an even bigger downturn in attendence. Meanwhile, 360 racing has become more expensive while guys are running for a fraction of the 410 purse. When Emmett started his National tour, nearly every driver I talked to that would have considered running it said it wasn't financially feasable for them to run it. Besides, why does he think PA. is a good market for the ASCS? The URC and ESS have been there forever. He tried to run them out of business, just like he tried with the USCS in the south. I've done shows where we brought in people who were proponents of 360's and let them sell their thoughts on the situation. I've come to the conclusion, after much study, that 360's aren't the future of sprint car racing.

Remember the discussion about the downward trend in attendence at Knoxville and Cappy's comments about perhaps replacing 410's with 360's and 305's for the weekly shows? If that happens, which it won't, but if they tried to do that, it would be the end of Knoxville Raceway. If anyone would suggest differently, I'd say have a 360/305 week at Knoxville and let's see how many people show up then.

Frankly, when everything is considered, the cost to the racer running a 360 as opposed to a 410 isn't much different. The cost saving is to the promoter that books a 360 event instead of a 410 race. But, you still have to sell tickets. Emmett first ran off the 410's in certain places, in favor of 360's. Then he sold events to promoters by saying 360's were the future of sprint car racing because there weren't any 410's and shows could be booked cheaper. How many ASCS races have had 5,000 fans in the seats?, 4000??. 3000???. Not many. Not even the Knoxville 360 Nationals.

I agree with Emmett's decision to start up regional racing series. I agree with Emmett and those who believe that 410 racing got out-of-control as far as costs. I would hope that the trend is reversing and am a strong believer that 410 racing can be saved and can thrive around the country by regionalization and affordable racing events AND by improved promoting techniques. I also believe that sprint car racing has been hurt by the dilution 360's have brought on and the division it has caused. Let's try to get back to it just being "sprint car racing" again.

Nice post John, A track that has given up on weekly 410's is now dropping the weekly ASCS. So, what kind of national trend is that?

John, we understand that you don't like the 360's and are a diehard 410 fan, but why don't you at least try to know what you are talking about before you post?

The only trend I see is your continued ignorant posts.

Instead of bashing me ( I don't care if you disagree but calling names doesn't solve anything), let's hear what you guys have to say in favor of 360 racing in your area. Show me where I'm misguided.

Meanwhile, 360 racing has become more expensive while guys are running for a fraction of the 410 purse.

Again John, you don't know what you are talking about. I race with ASCS SOD. I race for a bigger purse than the 410's at Butler MI, Wayne County OH, Lakeville OH, Lernerville PA, Sharon PA, and Tri City PA,

The ASCS SOD purse is 76% of what they pay at Fremont OH (which i believe is the one of the best paying 410 tracks in the country), and 88% of the Attica OH.

John, it makes no more sense to compare Williams Grove's and Knoxville's purse to weekly ASCS purses than it does to compare them to the many, many piss poor 410 purses around the country.

I think 360's could work in PA, but you'll need more than Emmit to make it float. Emmit picked the wrong side to team up with in PA. The promoter (Humpy Wheeler's shoe shine boy) at SSP has a hard on for sprint car fans and their "mentality"......what ever that means. As of now, 410 counts are good in PA. I think Clint said we saw 100 different teams compete over the Memorial Day Weekend.

"The Outlaws have people out here that don’t know 
anything about racing. I don’t understand how they 
come up with some of the calls they do. It makes me 
think that they just might be that stupid. It’s 
scary."     -Steve Kinser

Gaerte Engines Web Site Open 410 $41,000 ASCS 360 $26,000 = $15,000 Less. ASCS Tire Rule (No Options) Est.1992. WoO Tire Rule Est. About 90 Days Ago. You could run the ASCS Heads Built in 1992 and they are the same as 2007. If you do not consider these savings I doubt you are a car owner, or have been. Having to drive 600 or more miles to compete in a $3000 to win weekly race is not exactly cost effective either. Everyone loves the 410's its just that the shows aren't as exciting when only 9 show up. You are fortunate to live in a highly populated wealthy state. You need to understand that things are different in other areas. If not for 360's thousands would not see sprint cars at all. Your perceived pontificating does have a slight air of arrogance to it.

Actually, 410 sprint car counts are going up, or holding steady, nationwide, whether it be PA, Ohio, Knoxville or California. Not everyone runs a new Gaerte motor. Most local racers run used stuff and don't rebuild motors as often as the traveling series teams would. I've talked to 360 teams that have bought $35,000 motors. Whether it be 410's or 360's, racers spend money to go fast.When do you expect Attica and Fremont to switch to 360's for the weekly program? I don't think it's ever going to happen.

Emmett's National series was going to pay $5000 to win, now it's at $4000 and it's not exactly attracting fans in droves. How many people were at Virginia Motor Speedway? Did the track make money with that event. I've talked to most of the drivers who are runing the ASCS National tour and they've told me that they'd rather be driving 410s but there isn't anywhere in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Louisiana Arkansas or wherever to race anything but a 360. Knoxville's too far away. Those drivers WANT to run 410s and the FANS want to see 410s in that area. Wright, Rilat, Johnson & Johnson are all proven talents but people aren't beating down the turnstiles to see them in a 360.

Here, again, is the bottom line. How many fans ar going to these 360 races? As many as would attend a 410 race? I have had a recent conversation with a promoter in the midwest, in an area where there are no weekly 410 races any longer and he says that "people just won't come out to support the 360 races". He sees a need to rebuild local 410 racing. Yes, without the runaway costs that happened in the '90's, certainly. I can see a 410 series, like the Midwest All Star Series, as a beginning point to rebuild 410's in those areas. In fact, as I suggested earlier, maybe there is a way to get 410's and 360's to race together, with tire rules, ect. If that were possible,6n, would you race in such a series?

I'm not trying to be arrogant. I just think fans around the country want to see the best available product. And, I want to see more fans enjoy the sport.

The fans want to see what they consider the best available sprint car drivers. It has nothing to do with how many cubic inches are under the hood.

McCool Junction just held an ASCS Midwest/NCRA regional show with (37) cars. The crowd was good, not great, but good. I was there last year when the NST pulled thru the gates in August. The crowd was no bigger. Why? They all run 410's. Where were all these race fans that only want to see 410's?

In the (4) areas that you mention, yes, those fans are spoiled and want their 410's. At the other hundreds of race tracks where there's no 410's in the area, they're happy to see sprint car racing. If 410's did not exist at all, they would still go watch the same drivers they are watching now.

It's all perception. I would wager that 90% or more, race fans can't even tell the difference. The hard core fans can tell, but their numbers are dwindling. They assume because they're 360's. the show isn't worth going to.

Don't give us the fact that 410's are faster and that is what attracts these fans. By feature time, at most tracks, the 410's are running laps slower than most 360 heat races.

Eagle Raceway packed the grandstands for an ASCS regional event last year. The promoter wished he had that same crowd at his WoO show. His words, not mind. It's all perception.

If Huset's had a WoO show with all the same drivers, and they all had 360's, they would still get the same crowd as they get now. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for a WoO race that said anything about them being 410 sprints. The fans don't ask, nor do they care.

Except for the hard core fans in the (4) areas that you mentioned above. To them, it's all perception...CZ

John,

I don't expect Attica and Fremont to switch to 360's, there's no reason to. Just as there is no reason for Knoxville or Williams Grove to switch. I am not saying 360's should replace 410's anywhere. 410's have there own issues and it has been that way for a while, but it's not the fault of the 360's. My point of bringing up Attica and Fremont, is that they are very good paying 410 tracks, and ASCS SOD doesn't pay that much less. It was a comparison in response to your comment about how poorly 360 races pay.

It irritates me when you make comments that 360's don't/ can't draw fans. They do, otherwise they wouldn't be in existence. Why would anybody even think of Knoxville or W.G. as an example of how well fans would respond? That's like saying Late Models don't draw fans, since they draw less than WoO sprints at Knoxville.

You make comments that it should just be "sprint car". Well in my area (MI, Canada) that's how the fans see them. Fans know that SOD puts on a great show, and other than the WoO, most people don't have a clue about who other groups are. South Buxton Ontario booked an All Star show and drew less than half the people that SOD brings in. They don't look at 410, or 360, they know SOD Sprints = a great show, and they support it. Hartford, MI doesn't draw any more fans for an All Star show than they do with SOD, so they don't bring them in anymore. This is in no way dogging the All Stars, they have a great show.

Bringing up MASS, is a good point. MASS has already failed twice. They started out as GLOSS, primarily in Michigan until they could no longer get shows. They cost a few thousand more, but the biggest issue was SOD pulled in a much bigger crowd. They migrated to Non-wing country and failed there too. Hopefully, they will make it in IL, and bring more sprint car racing to that area.

In my area John, ASCS SOD pays better than, and draws a better crowd, than many other 410 options. In my opinion, many area's struggle with fan support for ASCS style racing is due to poor marketing.

As far as would I race with a series that has a set of rules to where 360's and 410's could run together, i would certainly support it, but wouldn't that make the "outlaw" 410's more limited? I guess I don't understand why adopting possible tire and wing rules are acceptable, but taking away 50 cubic inches is such a degrading horrible thing.

and by the way, I just watched the WoO Late Models at Virginia, and it didn't look there were many people supporting that show either.

Dain

OK z-man...

When you say Eagle was "packed" about how many fans are we tlking about? The only time I've seen Eagle even close to packed was about five years ago (or more) at a World of Outlaws race. At the most, I bet the ASCS race you are talking about had maybe 3000 fans. That's a good crowd there. The NST race at McCool Jct....yep, there was nary a soul there. Maybe 500 people. Why? Wasn't there a bit of a split in the 410 ranks last year? I had promoter after promoter come on my show and talk about how the split wass destroying their big shows. That said, the All Stars raced at Thunder Hill that same night and had 3200 paid. Why the difference? People went to see 410 racing but weren't going to pay full price to see the remnants of the WoO/NST split. Promotion at the two tracks in question was also very different. The All-Stars and the track worked hard to get people out to the race. WoO crowds were down all year as well. It was trending that way for several years because 410 racing was kinda messed up. Now, I believe we are seeing a rejuvenation in the 410 ranks. You mention Husets and how fans would turn out regardless...maybe, those people are rabid fans...but if it were 360s, you wouldn't be seeing Kinser, Schatz, Saldana, ect. because they just wouldn't go, especially at a 360 purse structure. 360 racing can be good...one of the best races I can remember was Wolfgang, Lasoski and McCarl in a 360 Nationals prelim at Knoxville. About 150 people saw that race. Those were pretty good names, too. With all the fans in town for the Nationals these days, why are the 360 Nationals so sparsely attended? ( Maybe 1500 fans on the prelim nights) while the 410s take to the track with the 360 finals and draw very well. Then it's back to the ToC the next night and maybe 1500 fans again. The 360 format is the same as the 410 Nationals, but the 410 nats prelim nights are acclaimed as the best racing the whole week.

Try as you might, you will never change the perception of 360s. As I said, it's not that the racing is not good...it's just a matter of what fans will pay to see.

Well, the 360's in my area afford me to have my own house, car, clothes on my back, food on my table (and judging by my size they let me eat pretty damn well!!), and a new dirt bike for my 5 year old. The 360's also let me afford to re-build my '70 Nova and hang out with my buddies for a few beers. Every once in a while if I think I'm going to get some from the ol lady I'll treat her to a hamburger.

I could go on, but I think you get my point of the 360's in "my" favor in my area!!

Contrary to what your beliefs are the 360's are pretty stout around the country with maybe the exception being in Pennsylvania.

Even though the 360's at Knoxville put on a very good show, time after time, the Raceway as done crazy things like not have 410's or no sprints at all and bring in the late models and guess what NO crowds, except when they think Tony Stewart will be there.

If not for Tony, Knoxville is a Saturday night only 410 track.

Regardless of the quality of the program, the crowd just plain flat doesn't want anything but the 410's and then only on Saturday nights.

Wake up race tracks, figure out what the crowd wants, then do a good job at promoting them.

Then and only then will a track start making up the customers they pissed away over the past decade.

Save your butt, get a colon screening TODAY

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Hey John,

I have a couple of questions, and since you seem to have all of the answers, I will direct them toward you. For years I have tried to figure out why 410 racing died in the Tulsa market and cannot come up with the answer. Hell they had names like Hillenburg, Estes, Crawford, Peters and Stewart throughout the years, but never had the crowds at the latest site that they had at the Fairgrounds. Why is this and what could have been done to save that particular place? The reason I ask this, is that it is one of the tracks that I am most familiar with and would be able to discuss.

Secondly, I would like to see an ACCURATE count of tracks around the country that currently run 410's and what their average car count and average crowd count is, how many tracks ran 410's over the past 15 years that don't run them any more, their average car count and average crowd count and why they are not running them at this time, how many tracks are currently running the 360's, their average car count and average crowd count. Now let's take this information and compare it to the national average of car counts and average crowd counts of every track and see what happens. I have a thought that we will find a downward trend with most tracks in the country, no matter what they run. Maybe, since we can't all live near those areas that have a lot of 410's, we find that the ASCS and 360 racing has a market and can work. I think it has and I think it will continue to work in most area's. Not everything that someone does is a perfect success. Geez, I have probably made two mistakes in typing this!

By the way, for those of you who like the numbers game, everyone can pick a couple of places and throw out numbers, i.e., ASCS Speedweek 06, if my memory is correct, averaged 35-40 cars, I have seen results from Oklahoma City ASCS Sooner Region race that had over 40 cars there as well.

I could be totally wrong in my opinion and you may have the stats to prove that. I don't know but would be curious to have the answer's. Speaking of answers, you mentioned specifically that the ASCS took on the USCS, do you have any explanation for that? I have heard some things but don't want to pass along rumors.

I guess I'm saying that no matter what it is, sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't. I doesn't matter what you try (as long as it is legal), you should give it your best and see if you can make it work. Give a little credit for someone trying to give a little something different to racing and make it better for the most people, instead of taking a stance for your own agenda. Thank you for letting me get on the soap box.

Sweeton

John...just a few quick observations of my own.  I've attended  15 shows (all 410) this year.  Three at Eldora (2 WoO & 1 All Star), Four at Volusia (2 WoO & 2 All Star), Three at Attica (1 WoO, 1 All Star & 1 weekly), Three at Gas City and a Two at Lawrenceburg.  All the WoO shows had a pretty decent crowd...break even or better.  Gas City & L'Burg also had decent crowds.  Attica show was really poorly attended for the All Star & weekly shows, as well as All Star Volusia & All Star Eldora.  I don't know if the increased price was the cause of the poor turnout.  I have an acquaintence that's a member of the All Stars and his concern is the lack of dates.  If the All Stars are really profitable as you suggest, why are dates so hard to get?  You would think that more tracks would run them as "specials".  I can think of at least two dozen tracks that no longer run the All Stars...and I guess I really don't know why.