Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Sprinty11:

How did the All Star get in this?

1. Concerning Volusia: Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday instead of Thursday, Friday, Sat.
2. Increased price?
3. Lack of dates? I have heard many times, 50 dates is the goal.
4. Concerning profitability: I don't know............but your assertions are that you do.......and negative.
5. Concerning your 24 tracks that used to run the All Stars......I don't know again.........but once again you do, or porport too.
6. Go take a walk and look for the good in life, you'll live longer and be happier.
7. Oh ya........I like the 360's.
8. Thank you

Hey John....while your trying to figure out the answeres to LIZARDS questions....try figuring out how many tracks the 360's have saved by filling the 410 tracks fields....like for example Mercer....and i'm sure you have some insight on that....lol....people WONT pay to see 12- 410's run for long...now will they?....that's what had happened to a lot of Ohio tracks around here....only a few survive with 410's....yes we all know which ones they are....but those are the tracks that promote their races like it should be done,AND look for sponsors to help pay for the weekly shows (and the big ones too)....and as for Emmett's National series....someday THEY will be THE traveling series,write it down...if the Allstars wouldn't have went out on a limb to help save the WOO from the NST....they wouldn't be in the position they are in(and it isn't pretty)....they single handedly SAVED the WOO from self destruction last year...don't kid yourself if you think not....i for one am very glad the 360's came to be....i was quitting when they first started, so i tried them....15 years later and probably 100 race tracks later(thanks to to Emmett and George (ASCS)....i got to continue to race,and against some of the best drivers in the country(all 360's i might add)....AND because of the limited heads i was competitive with a home made motor that i only had 5-$6000 in....trying to get off the soap box....you can fool some of the ppl some of the time,and all of the ppl some of the time,but you can't fool a real racer....now can you?....life's shot,play hard

For the first time in quite a while, I agree with BRR. If the promoter treats drivers like crap and disrespect, sooner or later you will have no drivers to treat that way. That will kill a program in no time at all. That could be one reason as the speedways failure thus far.

360's in PA. is a tough sell. They always had 410's and 358's for those sprint car fans to go support. Especially here in Oklahoma, the birth home of ASCS and the common 360's as we know it now, we didn't have 410 sprints until 1988. That was also the year NCRA adopted the 410 rule but still yet, Tulsa and Little Rock were the only tracks to run 410's weekly. Not sure when Devils Bowl stopped, however.

The promotion at Tulsa went on the downhill side and the 410's were getting more expensive to run. 1992 Emmett started his 360 deal and slowly but surely it caught on to where we are today, fifteen years later. The 410s at Tulsa died about 1997 or somewhere around there and sprint car fans had the 360's to look forward too. Remember, I said SPRINT CAR FANS, not 410 sprint car fans. Emmett has reached into the areas where 410's couldn't survive (Wichita Kansas, Little Rock, Memphis, Devils Bowl) and he has branched out to very successfull other states and his regional series where there is no sprint car racing. I am thinking he has succeeded and don't feel it is over with.

I have older friends who hate the 360's but are big 410 sprint car fans and travel to those races as much as possible. I have tried to tell them that you couldn't tell a difference if you didn't know any better but they are set in their ways, just as those people in PA. There is nothing wrong with that, they are just being 410 sprint car fans, not sprint car fans. To each their own.

ASCS and Emmett Hahn will survive without your help or PR or whatever it is you do. The fans and drivers will make their choice as to whether or not that series and those rules survive, not you nor any one single person. PA doesn't want it? There are always bumps in the road but I really wouldn't say that ASCS 360 racing in PA is a dead issue. It ain't over til its over.

And lastly, don't hold a personal vendetta against Emmett or the powers to be about no press credintials for the Chili Bowl if that is what your doing. I haven't gone since 2001 and I can listen to it or read all about it the night it happens and I found in doing so, the sun still rises from the West and sits in the East.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

If 360's are not the answer, why are there more tracks around the midwest and south that race 360's and why are 410 Knoxville drivers running 360 shows? People run 360's because they cost about $10-15,000 less and some people can't afford that extra bit of pocket change. And to say that 360's should be taken out of the WoO programs because of time, how about taking out the 2 laps of 410 time trials? I know of many people that come later in the evening so they don't have to sit through them. Instead of people downgrading 360's, maybe there should be some praise for them paying nearly as much, getting about 60% less purse and putting on a great show.

When was the last time a "home built" 410 won a WoO, WG or Knoxville show? How about a top 10?

410's haven't been around forever, and they won't be around forever, so you'd better prepare yourself. Just look at the number of cars out there. John, you say that the 410 #'s have been increasing or holding steady. Where at? Australia? Because I can't think of any.

When you start a thread with a line like yep, that Emmett sure is a visionary it sure looks like an agenda to me. Especially when your are a person of the media who should have a unbiased view of things. It is because of that and your catering to DIRT during the split that has kept me from listening to your show for the past year.

You say, Frankly, when everything is considered, the cost to the racer running a 360 as opposed to a 410 isn't much different. Unbelievable, let's take a closer look at this. There is at least a $15k difference in the cost of the engine. The wear and tear on the rearend is doubled. Let's look at a 24 race season. A 410 team is going to spend close to $30k for rebuilds while most 360 teams spend $0 (a top 360 team may spend upwards of $8k if he needs new pistons). All of that for what? $1000 to $1500 more to win and maybe $100 more to start?

Member of this message board since 1997

David:

You reporting from England again? LOL!!!

And lastly, don't hold a personal vendetta against Emmett or the powers to be about no press credintials for the Chili Bowl if that is what your doing. I haven't gone since 2001 and I can listen to it or read all about it the night it happens and I found in doing so, the sun still rises from the West and sits in the East.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

OK, I'll again state that sprint car racing should be sprint car racing. I'm an old enough fan to remember when a sprint car was a sprint car...not a winged or non-winged car, 410 or 360 or 358, but a sprint car. Maybe the days of truly "run what you brung" are over, but maybe with certain tire rules, wing rules, ect. we can find a way to have everybody in winged racing compete together and keep the costs from being prohibitive, while offering a great on-track product for the fans. I agree with those of you who believe 360s have become prominent because of the issues in the 410s. Certainly, those issues should have been addressed fifteen years ago, or more. They weren't and that's why the sport is wrestling with the kinds of things we are talking about here.

I have no quarrell with the quality of 360 racing...never have. Where I have a problem is that when 360 racing started, it was touted as a "limited" class. That's how people see it still today, whether that's right or wrong, you decide. Certainly, there are places like where Dain is located, where the SOD guys put on a good show and maybe everybody's happy with the result. After all, didn't somebody from Michigan brag about how "the last 410 was run out of Michigan" a couple of years ago while in Florida? I know that's a true quote because I heard it independently from four different people who were present at the occasion.

I actually think Emmett did a great job in regionalizing the ASCS and he was one of the first to see the need for unhooking the cars. I disagree with those, however, who believe the ASCS National Tour will become the major force in sprint car racing. When you start paying larger purses, you have to draw the fans to those races. I think that's a problem when you get away from your identified area.

There are many tracks which ran 410s which have gone away, or continue to struggle to succeed financially. With this in mind...Mercer was brought up as an example...could rules be implemented to allow both 410s and 360s to race, or is there something else that's the issue? Something that I think people have learned...some of these shows just got too expensive for promoters to make any money. 410s have a history of being ruled by the top down instead of the bottom up. That's why I think the Midwest All Stars have a good chance to succeed. Start with a more-than-reasonable purse, cost-wise, and build from there. The mid-south and south-central areas are primed for that kind of series. With proper promotion, it can work. I think it's important to find another track or two within a few of hours of Knoxville. Racers want to race.

Now, here's where I think Emmett has miscalculated a bit. He's done a fine job of getting tracks to run 360's, the car counts are good in most places. He's pitched to the promoters a reduced cost while offering 360s "which are just as good as 410s. Nobody can tell the difference". Well, frankly, I think most people can tell the difference and it is usually manifested in ticket sales. I'll ask this...why do most of the 360s around the country have the same wings, tires, ect as their 410 counterparts? Yep, they look the same but really aren't the same as a 410.

Looking back, the worst thing that happened to sprint car racing in the last twenty-five years is the cubic-inch limit. Kelly, maybe you can reply to this. It seems that is when costs started to skyrocket, everybody's goal was finding more horsepower whatever the cost. Maybe if there had always been an open limit on engine size, more effort could have been expanded to find the needed horsepower though innovations that may also have saved money. Maybe tires, ect. would have been looked at earlier, too. Then, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

I want to say this...410s aren't going to die. They will get stronger with rules that will make for better racing and reasonable costs. That is now the goal of 410 leaders. 410s will return to areas that have been vacated. What then of 360s?

Bottom line is this...how do we get to what Dave Blaney has stated, "It doesn't need to be about 410s, it doesn't need to be about 360s, it needs to be about sprint car racing.." 410s are going to be making further changes, to be discussed at the next Unified Sprint Car Summit at Lernerville in July. I think if there isn't a combined effort from 410s and 360s (and I have my doubts) then you'll see 410s continue to make changes designed to have better racing at lower costs. Eventually, the place and role of 360s will come into play. Think of the possibilities with marketing the sport under one common set of rules. I hope that's the future.

Oh...and for the LAST time...the Chili Bowl isn't even on my radar. The issue wasn't credentials. That kind of thing doesn't matter to me. It had to do with the WAY it was handled, especially having Emmett on my show the night before. I was basically lied to and didn't find out until I arrived at Tulsa. That said, there is no hard feelings but also no respect given. It's just one of those things and that's the last I'm commenting on that, since some of you wanted to make it an issue.

Just an observation....

At the Devil's Bowl in Mesquite, Texas - the last World of Outlaw race, which was highly advertised and at a reduced ticket price to get it (spectator) was a very poorly attended race. I have no idea why - but the stands were not filled as in the "good ole days".

They have more people in the stands for the ASCS show (or at least as many people there).

As a long time sprint fan - I prefer the ASCS format. Thus - I have driven past a World of Outlaw show to drive further to see a competitive ASCS race. But then - I like competitive racing - not seeing named drivers parade around the track. And believe me - I have seen plenty of both forms of racing.

Personally - I wish I could see more midget racing - and they have smaller displacement. Why do they draw spectators if it's all engine size?

haven't you heard? Size doesn't matter...

John,

OK, you now have my undivided attention on this matter. To quote the commissioner of the NBA last week on the Dan Patrick Show on ESPN radio, "I'll wrestle with you."

You're doing some nice dancing on this. Let's take some of your quotes, shall we...

At the start of this thread - "so much for the ASCS 360's saving promoters and tracks by keeping down the costs while providing the kind of racing fans want to see...yep, that Emmett sure is a visionary." You use the word visionary with a little sarcasm is this particular quote. Then in your most recent quote you state - "I actually think Emmett did a great job in regionalizing the ASCS and he was one of the first to see the need for unhooking the cars." Sounds like you agree with the "vision" he had. In fact you go on to say this as well- "He's done a fine job of getting tracks to run 360's, the car counts are good in most places". Somewhat of a change from your first post.

Next you stated - "Where I have a problem is that when 360 racing started, it was touted as a "limited" class." I believe it was "touted" as an affordable class. In fact, all of the quotes that I have seen from the ASCS from it's inception have used that word and concept.

Let's look at another quote from you latest post - "That's why I think the Midwest All Stars have a good chance to succeed. Start with a more-than-reasonable purse, cost-wise, and build from there." Sounds like the idea that Emmett had in mind when he started the ASCS. Not much vision there, huh.

Next - "410s aren't going to die. They will get stronger with rules that will make for better racing and reasonable costs. That is now the goal of 410 leaders." I believe that if you will find some quotes from the ASCS office when they first started out, they were also wanting to build a series with different rules that made for "better racing and reasonable costs". If there is no vision there, then, by your own quotes, the 410 leaders must not be much of visionaries either.

For our next quote, we'll use this one - "I'll ask this...why do most of the 360s around the country have the same wings, tires, ect as their 410 counterparts?" Maybe, it's to allow those drivers that want to compete in the 410 division but cannot afford it to have a place to run their equipment without spending a boatload of money in doing so. Or maybe, it's to allow the younger generation a place to start out and get some experience in racing the sprint cars, then move up or on to another division without having to replace every single piece of equipment. Drivers like Jason Sides, Daryn Pittman, Shane Stewart, etc.

Finally (for this post), you spend your entire time talking about the differences in 410 and 360 / ASCS racing and how it hasn't worked. You have danced around things that other posters and I have shown to you (by the way, I guess I missed the answers to my other post, but I'll keep looking for them). However you end with this quote - "Bottom line is this...how do we get to what Dave Blaney has stated, "It doesn't need to be about 410s, it doesn't need to be about 360s, it needs to be about sprint car racing..". If that is the case, then why start this post the way you did and keep it going as you have done. Sounds like some good political ramblings, there. Then you ended with this - "410s are going to be making further changes, to be discussed at the next Unified Sprint Car Summit at Lernerville in July. I think if there isn't a combined effort from 410s and 360s (and I have my doubts) then you'll see 410s continue to make changes designed to have better racing at lower costs." That sounds great, however, I think that is what started the whole concept of ASCS racing, guess you really don't think Emmett had much vision.

Now, I will wrap this up with this... It takes a lot to run a Regional Series in any form of racing. It takes even more to run a National Series in any form of racing. However, to run a National Series and numerous Regional Series at the same time takes more effort and coordination than you can imagine. To coordinate with the tracks, the racers and fans (all of which play a large part in the success of the equation) is not an easy undertaking. If you have not been there and seen it in person, you might want to go gain the experience. The people at the ASCS and their entire staff work their butts off trying to make this thing go. I have seen it in person and, gladly, even been a part of it in the past. I have not personally seen the work involved in other series, but would say that they work just as hard and have just as many mountains to climb. Now, take an idea from the ground up and make it into something is an incredible task and I think that Emmett and the people on his staff have done a great job in doing this. Have there been mistakes, sure. Will there be more mistakes in the future, sure. But as anyone who is a good business person will tell you, if you don't make some mistakes, then you aren't trying very hard.

I know that you will probably have some more dancing with this, but I am finally done with my diatribe. I still think you have a personal agenda, be it lack of credentials or just to "stir the pot". However, please give us some factual information before you continue on the "bash Emmett and 360 racing" bandwagon.

Sweeton

I've been excited by the new tracks both wing and non-wing that have added 410s to their programs this year. The jury is still out on MASS, but if done correctly, that will bring $2000 to win shows to an area that has never seen that kind of purse structure. At Knoxville our 410 numbers have risen this year. If you think 410 numbers are down, compare them to the late 70's, all of the 80's and the 90's. We are up about 5-10 cars a week from that time. The WoO has been incredible and played to chiefly packed houses wherever they go. I think they have the fans in mind, are getting done early, and doing their best with tires and format to cater to the fan.

I am from the Knoxville area, and the fans do have a grudge against the 360s here, and probably always will. There is a reason that outside of the 360 Nationals and ToC there is not one 360 special scheduled, and there never has been. The folks around here are 410 fans to be sure. When the limited class was started in the early 80's, most fans used the time they were racing for the restroom, or for socializing. The class has come a long ways, and has grown bigger than just a stepping stone to the bigger class, but I don't believe that it will ever grow the fan base of the 410s. Saying that, I've always been a big fan of any sprints that hit the track and now travel to other venues to watch and cover the 360s.

Knoxville, central/western PA, Indiana, Ohio and even Wisconsin are tough places to make the 360 work, because 410 racing is simply what those areas are based on. They are all thriving this year in relation to racing and car count.

It was interesting to read this thread, as the opinions are predictable according to where the authors are from. Most defending the 360 have been from areas where the 410s are no more. The big picture can not be painted with one broad stroke to be sure.

If this post isn't results, stories or something c
constructive, it isn't me! 
@BillWMedia
www.OpenWheel101.com

I love 410 sprints and I too, do not want to see them disappear.

However, until race teams can spend around $25,000 on a 410 engine AND be competitive with the top tier of the 410 division, WoO, All Stars, etc., AND get (18) to (24) races between rebuilds, AND not have to spend around $8,000 to $10,000, or more, on those rebuilds, the 360's will continue to thrive because the bottom line is, racers want to race AND racers want to be competitive.

Some people want to blame the decline of the 410 car counts on the rise of the 360's. The fact is the 360's have kept many race teams from becoming race fans.

On a side note, Gary Lee Maier took home $6,000 this past weekend in 360 competition. How many 410 teams did? Not being sarcastic, just asking a question...CZ

Man I wish this forum had a history that went back to near the beginning. Early on I was a proponent of 360 racing and took quite a pounding for it, including a few drivers in private emails, ouch. I always liked the format and many times saw better shows at Knoxville and Eldora from the 360 guys than the 410's and spoke so. Some considered it sacreligious of me or hypocritical since I made most of my money from the 410 guys but I didn't look at it that way. I was a racefan first and that's what mattered the most to me, sorry.

There are an awful lot of good ideas in this thread and some very good thought proviking points that I honestly hope that promoters, car owners and even some fans pay attention to. The bottom line and Dave Blaney said it best is 'sprint car racing'. To each his own, support those that entertain you and continue to go as often as possible and please try to bring a friend with you. If every fan in this forum alone took a friend this weekend to a race you would start a ball rolling that would ultimately have momentum that nothing could stop. Over the years that was something I was very proud of and my biggest thing was getting NASCAR fans to go and dozens upon dozens thanked me for starting them on their new journey. Step up to the plate folks and bring your neighbor, fellow worker or Uncle to the races and trust me they won't know if it's a 360 or 410 and either way should love it for what it is, the greatest show on dirt (sorry Johnnie). Take It Easy....

That was a good post, Mike. Whenever the usual argument takes place on this forum, my belief has always been that people should support what they enjoy: be it the Outlaws or weekly racing.

Personally, I never undcerstood why any of the teams supported Fisher with the 360 move at Susky. He had already shown a precedent for dropping classes on a whim and cutting purses. As long as the Outlaws are running 410s, PA will always have a weekly 410 class. And a large portion of fans at places like Williams Grove, Lincoln and Port won't watch anything if it's not a 410.

The Grove used to run a STARS Late Model show in conjunction with the weekly 410 program once a year. The Late Models paid $5,000 to win that night and the 410s paid their usual $3,000. As soon as the 410 race was over, nearly the entire grandstand got up and walked out. I am fan of all types of racing, so I just sat there thinking, "You people are walking out on some of the best drivers in the country."

The only way 360s would ever catch on as a viable headline class in central PA would be if the 410 racing completely disappeared.

I do have one request for Emmett and the ASCS: Please move the banquet back to the Casino!!!! I did appreciate you having Garth Brooks at this past banquet but I liked the sounds of the slots ka-chinging in my favor....................... for once!!

CZ...Garry Lee took home $6,000. How did the promoter do? Did he make money, too?

I see the ASCS Nationals will be at Lakeside in KC July 7. If ever there was a place outside the home base where there would be a really good crowd, this would be it. Marc Olsen is a great promoter and there is some name recognition for the drivers with the local fans. Might just go down, buy a ticket and see for myself. I hope Marc hits a home run with it.

Sweeton, how has attendence (fans) been at OKC, Devils Bowl and the other south central regional tracks that make up the bulk of the National tour? What's the National purse and what does it take to make the promoter money? What is an acceptable fan count at places like Wheatland and Denison when the series comes to MO. and IA.? What does a ticket cost to an ASCS National event?

Will the promoters make money???

Yea Sweeton, Emmett has long advanced the thought of regionalization and unhooking the cars. But he's not alone. The problem is that for years, the sport was in the grip of Ted's world view and the Outlaws reigned because the tracks made money with them. However, times are quickly changing. A lot of people knew that something needed to be done but the power in sprint car racing was concentrated somewhere else. Is Emmett a visionary interested in seeing ALL of sprint car racing evolve and get stronger? Will Emmett work with the rest of the sprint car industry to reach the goal of better and more affordable racing? Or will that eventuality lead him to protecting what he has now?Time will tell. Meanwhile, you can continue to protect his legacy and that's fine. Not everyone is in agreement, however. Nor does everyone agree with mine.

Sweetan, just about every track I've ever gone to or looked at called 360s "limited" sprints at the outset. Knoxville foremost amongst them. It may be hard to get into the fans' collective head, but, deep down, what do you think they consider 360s to be, even now?

I've spoken with all four of the top drivers on the ASCS National tour and everyone of them has stated at different times that they'd PREFER to be in a 410, that 410s are more challenging to drive. The reason they are in 360s is opportunity and location. They want to race and where they are now provides them the best opportunity to be successful...for now.

Again Sweeton, you take issue with my question regarding the nearly identical tires, wings, ect. found on 360s and 410s. Maybe you are correct in your counter-argument...but does this also lead to increased costs? If it's a way for racers to get started and move up without changing everything, does that increase costs for that "affordable" brand of racing to begin with? Then again, there's that Perception thing again...360s as a place to start before moving on up.

Sprint2257...I think it's great that you can continue your racing on a limited budget. There is nothing wrong with that and if 360s have allowed you to do that, great. However, there is a whole other world out there to look at, too. By your own admission, you are a "limited" racer. Nothing wrong with that. there should be a place for that. I don't quite get your take on the All-Stars and that series' current "situation" according to your opinion, or how any relationship with WoO has caused a problem. Frankly, the reason the WoO succeeded when the NST did not had to do with track promoters making decisions on where they stood in the matter. Seems like the All Stars are doing OK if they can just get some decent weather and more stability from tracks along the way. I'll make note of your prediction the ASCS will be THE national touring series. We shall see. When the ASCS gets into Knoxville, Eldora, Williams Grove, and California and starts sanctioning the biggest races in the sport, then you may have something.

The one post I am willing to accept (for the most part) is jdhig24. "for them paying nearly as much, getting about 60% less purse"...Since you are closely associated with a top 360 racer (and one that would do well in 410s with the right opportunity), you understand that the 360s are closing the gap in costs with a 410 and yet, the purse is "a fraction" of the 410s. I've stated this before. Yes, they do put on a good show at Knoxville. But..at a WoO race at Knoxville, fans are there to see the 410s. A person very close to the situation told me recently that he'd be in favor of having a limited field of 360s or maybe drop them on a WoO night but "the fairboard thinks they really need the 500 fans they bring on that night". Again perception...or truth?

Dain, I will take your word that SOD races are well attended by fans and racers alike. That said, I have heard that more than one track is looking at bringing 410 racing back to Michigan. Can you provide insight into this?

You know, PA. and Ohio have good quality 360 racing. The URC is a class group...and the NRA in Ohio puts on a fine program. but they know what they are and have found a nice niche in their markets. Emmett's had his eye on PA. (at least) for a couple of years now and I don't see the ASCS making inroads in Ohio. What were his goals in PA.?

OK, I know that 410 racing kinda dug it's own grave in certain places around the country in the '90s. And, I think it may have had a helping hand in digging that grave a bit. But, it is my prediction, having talked to people who are on the inside of things (yes, promoters), that there may be a move to re-introduce 410s back to some areas where it went away. I think that's a positive situation. Whether it's going to be 410s or more of an "open" class remains to be seen. If and when it happens, where will Emmett and the 360s be? At that point, will there be resistance to positve change if Emmett's influence isn't what it is now.

Anyway, the bottom line is what promoters think. It's not what racers or series officials think when it come right down to it. The promoters and tracks are in business to make money. The fans that are acclimated to 360s support them. The fans that like 410s support them. I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens as things evolve.

Up here in O-HI-O we have a name for 360's and 305's. "Support class". Nothing wrong with either and I enjoy watching both. I have many friends who race 360's and 305's and I'll be darned if they don't all want to move up to a 410 someday. Crazy.

Bottom line - if everyone was running 360's there would NOT be any savings. It is a race to outspend the competition...not a competition to outrace the big spenders. Sad but TRUE...the "have's" vs. the "have nots" will always separate the top tier in motorsports. Spending will spiral out of control at the top end of 360 racing...if everyone was racing 360's. I will never buy into the "cost savings" argument. It is a myth...or it would be if there were no 410's. Ask the experts...I've heard them all agree with that at one time or another.

I am a SPRINT CAR fan. Period. But given the choice to watch 410's vs a 360 headliner show...well - I don't put a lot of thought into it. 410's win every time.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

I will spell it out in black and white for the mentally challenged: a 410 costs $45,000 a 360 costs $35,000

With my very limited knowledge in mathematics that looks like a $10,000 "savings" but then again I'm not an expert so don't ask me

Yes everything else is pretty much the same as far as fuel, tires, bars, shocks, etc......

And you don't think that in time with nothing but 360's in the world that the price wouldn't go up...just because you can if for no other reason? Do you not think the guys who have the $$ will freshen the motors more often, forcing the other guys to keep up, costing more money than they are currently spending? I'm no expert either, but I am a logical thinker. I just heard an interview with Brian Brown stating the very things I have mentioned. I have talked to 410 owners who say the very same thing as well. I have talked to track promoters...guess what - same thing. This doesn't just come from the warped mind of a 410 series PR dummy.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

John,

Let's just try to answer some of your qustions:

"how has attendence (fans) been at OKC, Devils Bowl and the other south central regional tracks that make up the bulk of the National tour?" I will not speak for Lanny or his staff at either track, but I can assure you that he would not do anything that did not make money! Just call him and ask that question yourself.

"What's the National purse and what does it take to make the promoter money? What is an acceptable fan count at places like Wheatland and Denison when the series comes to MO. and IA.?" You can find the purse posted at the following location www.ascsracing.com. Again, I won't speak for Wheatland or Denison but it would seem rational that the number of fans would be based upon the purse and the admission price. However, most logical people will tell you that if you have a smaller purse, then you don't have to have as many people.

"I've spoken with all four of the top drivers on the ASCS National tour and everyone of them has stated at different times that they'd PREFER to be in a 410, that 410s are more challenging to drive. The reason they are in 360s is opportunity and location. They want to race and where they are now provides them the best opportunity to be successful...for now." I think you answered your own question with this statement. If it were not for the ASCS, then these guys, by your quote, would not be able to race and we would not be able to see the talent that they have. Do I want to be owner of my company, sure, but right now, I can only afford to be a salesman. Most all of us have goals that we have and things that we would PREFER to be doing. Why don't you ask those drivers if they are appreciative of the opportunity to race where they are, instead of sitting on the sidelines? BTW, I remember seeing a quote from one of those that I assume you are referring to, and he stated that he has made more money over the past few years driving an ASCS car than he had driving the 410.

"you take issue with my question regarding the nearly identical tires, wings, ect. found on 360s and 410s. Maybe you are correct in your counter-argument...but does this also lead to increased costs?" The way I see it is the only increased costs would be to add a different motor and not have to change the entire fleet. It's called progression.

"If it's a way for racers to get started and move up without changing everything, does that increase costs for that "affordable" brand of racing to begin with?" Here is an example for ya: Joe Smith wants to go sprint car racing, he can't afford to get everything to go 410 racing, but has enough to get started in ASCS / 360 racing. He is going to race something no matter what amount of funds he has. He gets the ASCS / 360 stuff, goes out and gains valuable experience with the cars, traveling, etc. Two years later he gets some extra funds that allow him to go 410 racing. Now, the items that he has to add to go racing are now cut down to only a few instead of having to get rid of all of the cars, parts and inventory that he has in the trailer.

"Is Emmett a visionary interested in seeing ALL of sprint car racing evolve and get stronger?" I think he has proven that he is interested in what will create an opportunity for the most people. "Will Emmett work with the rest of the sprint car industry to reach the goal of better and more affordable racing? Or will that eventuality lead him to protecting what he has now?" As a business person, ask yourself what you would do. Let me answer that one for you... by responding to these posts you have "protected what you have now", your opinion and your show. Put yourself in Emmett's shoes, he started something when nobody else believed in what he was trying to do and now that people who may have (notice I said may have) been against him in the past are coming around to the same conclusion he had 15 years ago. What would you do? If you said anything but "protect what you have now" you would be a liar. It's called business. Just like the promoters are businessmen, the car owners are businessmen and the drivers are businessmen. Again, I am not speaking for Emmett or his organization, but it's only common sense to try to take care of those who helped you be successful. I think he's also smart enough to see that things are always evolving and is always open to new ideas.

"Anyway, the bottom line is what promoters think. It's not what racers or series officials think when it come right down to it." I think you just showed your line of thinking. I will make sure that I tell all of the fans that are at the races as well as the car owners and drivers that they don't matter. I'm sure that will go over very well. I always thought it took all of us to make something successful. I'm sure that they all will appreciate you not considering what they want in this process.

Keep dancing, I'm still here...

Sweeton

Most people running weekly 410s don't have new motors nor do they rebuild them like the travelers. $35k for a motor when most 360 races pay $1000 to $1500 is pretty darn expensive. Kelly, if 410s went away, what would that 360 cost? Wouldn't the purses have to increas as well? There would also be more rebuilds more often to keep up with the jones's, too, would you not think? I appreciate the idea that a 360 lasts longer between rebuilds with proper maintainence and use, but as the competition increases, wouldn't this change, too?