Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

No John...everything would stay exactly the same as it is right now and I am sure no engine builder would ever charge more than they do right now for a 360 motor or a rebuild.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

You say, Frankly, when everything is considered, the cost to the racer running a 360 as opposed to a 410 isn't much different. Unbelievable, let's take a closer look at this. There is at least a $15k difference in the cost of the engine. The wear and tear on the rearend is doubled. Let's look at a 24 race season. A 410 team is going to spend close to $30k for rebuilds while most 360 teams spend $0 (a top 360 team may spend upwards of $8k if he needs new pistons). All of that for what? $1000 to $1500 more to win and maybe $100 more to start?

I feel that the fans naturally would rather see 410's, myself included, although I'm not going to not go because it's a 360 race, that's just ignorant. 360's have enabled many racers to keep racing who can't or won't spend the money to 410 race and it provides great racing. Most racers also would rather drive 410's. Gary Wright, Wayne Johnson and other big names have very recently said in interviews that the 410's are actually easier to drive than the 360's. Yes, things happen quicker, but there is more power to help you.

360's even the field out more. Many drivers don't necessarily like that if you are a big name.

It will cost you much, much more to race a competitive 410 for the whole season at a big track like Knoxville compared to a 360 because of the time between freshens and the cost of freshening. I know at least one of the top 360 guys at Knoxville will go 25 races between freshens. There sure are a lot less good owners out there than there once was. More of the racers now come from wealthy families or have that connection they need with money to land a good ride. Less is based on talent. It probably has allways been this way but seems more so now.

I don't know what the answer is to get the fans in 410 areas to watch them. I think the higher profile driver names through the south and midwest helps but doesn't allways put fans in the seats. Part of it is on the promotion side. Some of the very best racing of the year is the 360 Natls., but I think that with the 410 Natls. the following week, a lot of people aren't going to take the time off of work and are saving their money for the next week and that really hurts attendence.

John,

I am not aware of any track in MI looking at bringing 410's back. I really don't think there are enough of them here to do it, nor is there a track capable of paying a purse high enough to attract any outsiders. Butler only gets about 22 cars per show and there are about 5 or 6 360's there, but like I said before, there purse is lower than any 360 races I go to.

I disagree with Swamp on the cost savings. Racing always will be expensive, but the great thing about the ASCS heads combined with a weight rule is that it's not about how much you can spend that makes the difference, it's about how little you can spend compared to others and still be competitive. In my opinion, the HP difference between a 410 that costs $30,000 and one that costs $10,000 is far greater than the HP difference between a $30,000 and a $10,000 ASCS engine. THAT is what I like about the 360's, with the restricted airflow, you can spend a ton, but dollar for dollar, you just don't gain that awful much.

As far as being a support class, Swamp is right. In Ohio, that's pretty much how it is. Same in Knoxville and most of PA. Unfortunately, the majority of the country can't support 410's at that level. In areas that aren't doing so well, would the majority of casual race fans rather watch a full field of ASCS style sprints or 15 low quality 410's? I personally would much rather watch the NRA with 30 cars at Lima over the field of cars they drew at Wayne County and Lakeville.

Sprint Cars are kick ass. If you put on a good quality show at a reasonable price, and promote it well, you are going to gain fans in most areas. Even if you have 50 cubic inches less than cars in other areas of the country.

Sprint Cars are kick ass. If you put on a good quality show at a reasonable price, and promote it well, you are going to gain fans in most areas.

Truer words have never been typed on this message forum. The whole 360 vs 410 thing will probably not be solved before the whole Outlaws vs the Posse thing. I just want to see good racing and I prefer that to be in the 410 ranks. Why? I live in Ohio where they are abundant. I'd like to see every region with as many 410s as we have here and in PA. Until someone starts putting the clamps on the spending it won't happen...and we will all argue this point til the next millenium.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

Sweeton, what I am saying that unless the promoters think they can make money with an event, there is no event. The promoters make decisions based on what they think the fans will pay for and whether enough fans will pay enough to make that event profitable, just like any other kind of business. Series officials have to keep that in mind when they try to sell a date to a track. Racers will go to a race where they think they have a chance to meet whatever goals they set for themselves.

For example...who do you think ended the WoO/NST debacle? The promoters weren't going to stand for losing their butts, anymore. They made their decisions based on a number of factors, but being profitable was chief among them.

It all starts with the promoters, though. Without their tracks, there is no race. I didn't think I'd have to explain that to you.

I think what we have here is the ASCS being more driven by cost factors, especially for the racers, and that's fine, while secondarily thinking about the promoters. I say that if the promoters are happy, there is more racing for the racers at a reasonable purse.If the fans come out, the promoters are happy. If not, it won't be long before you have no race.

So, while you are telling everyone (fans, racers, ect.) that I said they don't matter...why not ask them if they'd like to pony up a sanction fee, purse, advertising, payroll, electricity, insurance, ect. ...as well as good old BS&T, all the while keeping a eye peeled on the weather channel for days to see if they might make a few bucks come raceday. Let's be realistic, here.

John...playing the devil's advocate here...based on what you said (and I agree w/ you 100%) - it is also up to the promoters to PROMOTE...not just swing the gates open and bitch because nobody came. How many times have we seen this?

We - the All Stars - are currently making great strides and tremendous efforts to TRY to help give the promoters the tools they need to promote our races. I will admit - I am way behind on that part of our program, but many times the things we DO provide go unused for various reasons. Our goal by the end of the season and into next - is to give promoters affordable options to have the means necessary to PROMOTE our races...the job they are intended to do.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

WELL, THIS IS QUITE THE TOPIC!!! While the Mrs. & i are predominately 410 fans, we are gradually watching more of the local 360 & 305 "support' races (thanx Swampy!) While i realize that a lot of one's opinion may very well be formed by the area of the country that one lives in, i don't think that ANY one form of sprintcar is THAT much better than another. we all know the age old arguements.......actually, i wish the Ntl. 360's would come around here in Northern Ohio (when i'm not working) !! Oh, thanx to the posters who put the comparison $$ up....if they are close to correct, i find that very interesting. And lastly, didn't a "360" driver finish 3rd at the Ntls?

Yes...but a 410 driver finished 1st and 2nd... :-)

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

Can we keep this thread alive for five years because by then, Haud, Kauffman and Kinser and more will have probably retired and the people who grew up watching all these drivers race 410 for years will not be racing any longer. THEN we can see whether or not people are there to watch 410 sprint car racing and the "named" drivers they attatch sprint car racing too or just general sprint car fans in itself.

I am a WoO fan and always have been, even through the nonsense from last year, but it will be interesting to see where 410 sprint car racing is at in five years. In my opinion.

Bottom line is and back to the original deal, promoters like the one you mentioned in PA have to treat drivers and fans with respect and fairly or people will spend their hard-earned money elsewhere.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

Dain, I understand what you are saying and you've done a great job of framing your opinion to what you have experienced. Again, maybe in your area in Michigan and Canada, the promoters are happy with the product. The fans ar happy and the racers are happy. If so, that's great. The bottom line is for promoters to make money while the racers can race and the fans can attend affordably.

My issue is this. Just as proponents of 360s want to see expansion around the country in that class, I'd like to see 410s expand around the country. Maybe there's a way to just make this about sprint car racing again as opposed to 410s v 360s. Heck, I'd like to see a series develope where it was "run what you brung" with a weight rule and hard tires on the RR and LR, running winged and non-winged events. I know it will never happen but wouldn't that be something to attract the interest and imagination of fans!

No...you need to put the drivers in a cage match with folding chairs and pipe wrenches singing karaoke in front of 3 judges to get anyone interested in anything these days.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

The $10,000 difference betweeen a Wesmar 410 and 360 is HUGE in today's racing economy, especially considering most racer's are putting at least a couple hundred bucks worth of gas into their tanks to get to any kind of race. I think if the drivers could go to their nearest Gas Station and pay $1.25 per gallon as opposed to, in my area of the world, $3.49 a gallon, the 410 car count across the nation ( save Ohio Iowa and Pennsylvania ) wouldnt be in such bad shape.

Of course a promoter has to do his job, Swamp. He needs to know his market, available resources for getting the word spread, have a decen tfacility and fan amenities, ect. I've seen sanctioing bodies like the All Stars, provide the promoters much help in this regard. Thunder Hill in Kansas last year was a great example.

Stubb, Jason Johnson has won features at Knoxville and in PA. as well as World of Outlaws, All Stars and the NCRA 410's. I believe he is also signed up for Ohio Speedweek in a 410, so that's not really a good example of your typical 360 driver.

Todd Fisher is finding his niche, or more or less it is finding him...a backgate operation like Trail-Way (358s, thunder cars and micros). If he was rich he probably would have just fixed the place up and maybe been able to tap into Susky's Sunday night heritage of days gone bye. He's SOL since he couldn't afford to however. Car owners and fans go to the races for the competition, atmosphere and prestige. Making money doesn't play a part anymore for race teams especially. All you can hope for is to provide a good enough distraction that they don't notice how much they're spending...lol. Fisher couldn't afford a good enough distraction. Prestige takes a lot of time and money. Simply whitewashing over battered old guardrails doesn't cut it anymore. Many haulers roll into the pits with more invested than he paid for the property itself. Probably his only hope to return Susky to its former glory at this point is outside investment.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

One of the longest threads on here I've seen in a long time with hardly any name calling and threats. Almost makes a guy nostalgic for Beadie .... NOT !!

R.A.

S.H.S.

Swamp, as prices on parts from our vendors increase we have no choice but to increase our price as well in order to do such things as make payroll, pay utilities, and OH make a profit!!

I guess the All-Stars have never had an increase in sanctioning fees over the years?

John, "IF" the 410's were to go away and there was only 360's left you might see owners wanting to freshening their engines up on a more frequent basis, BUT that is their call not ours.

I laugh at the 360 teams the refreshen their engines like the 410 guys do. I have personally seen a 20 night 360 blow away a fresh 360 on more than one occasion. A buddy of mine spins his 360 around 8400 to 8500 and gets 20 to 25 nights out of them.

Member of this message board since 1997

John,

We continue on:

"what I am saying that unless the promoters think they can make money with an event, there is no event" I will give you credit on this one. One of the accurate things that you have said on this. It may start with the promoter and his track, however, don't make it out to sound like nobody else matters in the equation because the promoter also has to consider the fans, drivers and owners thoughts and opinions to form his.

"what I am saying that unless the promoters think they can make money with an event, there is no event. The promoters make decisions based on what they think the fans will pay for and whether enough fans will pay enough to make that event profitable, just like any other kind of business." Why would that not apply to racing in general? Is that not just as important a factor in the 410 ranks and could that not be a product of why the number of 410 shows have gone down over the past few years?

"I think what we have here is the ASCS being more driven by cost factors, especially for the racers, and that's fine, while secondarily thinking about the promoters." Wouldn't that be a good thing for the promoters? If I can give you a show for a lower purse and sanction fee, that would mean less of a risk that you would be taking on your part. More cost savings that you could pass along to the fans in lower ticket prices, thus increasing their incentive to come out.

"why not ask them if they'd like to pony up a sanction fee, purse, advertising, payroll, electricity, insurance, ect. ...as well as good old BS&T, all the while keeping a eye peeled on the weather channel for days to see if they might make a few bucks come raceday. Let's be realistic, here." All right, let's... if a person opens a race track they know the chances that they are taking from the very beginning. If they don't know that then they are a fool from the start and we won't even consider them. For the one's that know and understand the risks, that is just part of their job. We all play a part in the proces. Promoters worry about sanction fees, purse, advertising, etc. because that is what they have chosen. Race car drivers worry about finishing up high enough to make a little money and maybe put some weiners in the beans for the kids. Bankers worry about people making their loan payments on time. Forklift salesmen worry about making enough calls during the day to create the proper amount of leads. It's their chosen profession and it is their risk that they take, why should we have to ask the fans these questions. Let me say that I do not envy any promoter in today's environment, it's a tough task and one that I would not want to do. Those are my feelings and that is why I don't do it. Simple enough and realistic.

What other people have said on here makes more sense that anything... certain areas will accept certain things that will not be acceptable in other parts of the country. In Missouri, we like country music, biscuits and gravy and fishing. Not really sure how much the folks in New York like those things but I would imagine the numbers are quite low. In New York, the fashion is to be in suit and tie for prominent businessmen. In the Midwest, I would get kicked out of most places for wearing a coat and tie, just slacks and a nice shirt. In California, the CEO of a company may wear flip-flops to work every day. All people, just all different. However, we don't try and crucify the others just because they are different and their opinions and style are not exactly the same as ours. By the way I have noticed how you did not answer my first post and how you have sort of dropped off of the Emmett bashing and taken this to a promoter making money sort of post. Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm.

Keep dancin, I'm still here

Sweeton

You are absolutely correct. So therefore my theory is true by your own admission. Nothing wrong with paying the bills and making a profit - tis the American way. But - prices will continue to rise. Costs will continue to spiral. In the end we will gain nothing by having ALL 360's across the land. Those who think 360's are "the future" are sadly mistaken...at least I hope they are.

Again - i want to restate I like SPRINT CAR RACING period. I'd watch 600 micros and 4 cyclinders if they were in my back yard. That is not the point of this conversation. The point is... I'm tired of the whole argument.

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

I know that in CA we have a good programs for both 360 and 410 sprint car racing. I think the Golden State Challenge traveling 410 sprint car series that runs from the beginning of March to the end of July with races every weekend is one of the best 410 programs around. The car counts vary with about 25 to 40 cars each night depending on the track, but the stands are usually full and at some tracks they even sell out. I go to almost every race because I enjoy watching the talented racers and they put on a good show for a good price ($15-20).

The Civil War is CA traveling 360 series with 15 events scattered around from March to October to allow for teams to race at other tracks. The car counts are higher than the 410s, but I think it is due to the fact that it is cheaper to run 360s than 410s. The Civil War shows put on a good show also and I look forward to going to them near the end of the season. When the GSC series is over the drivers put in their 360s and race the remaining Civil War events.

Of course we are lucky enough to have the Outlaws coming to 4 of our tracks (Chico, Calistoga, Tulare, and Perris) and it is exciting to see our locals drivers race against the best in the U.S.

There is also 410 points racing at Silver dollar speedway (Chico) on Friday nights and 360s at Placerville speedway on most Saturday nights. I enjoy both 410 and 360 sprint car racing and I think they both have something to offer. I am lucky that I live in a state that has many choices for sprint car racing

Looking forward to the new Golden State King of the 
West series schedule! 

Winged sprintcars = the fastest and most exciting 
racecars on dirt!