|
|
|
|
|
Topic: Many WOO regulars looking at running own schedule for 2012
|
Email this topic to a friend |
Subscribe to this Topic
| Report this Topic to Moderator
|
|
Page 3 of 3 of 52 replies
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
07:15:27 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/17/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
2265
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Some Guy In Texas on October 05 2011 at 06:47:39 PM
Thanks to all for not going in the usual direction on this forum. Interesting posts.
If I'm not mistaken... the car count at a big late model race is dramatically different than a WoO sprint race. There are a handful of WoO races with a nice count... but an awful lot of short fields and several of cars were 360s showing up for a check.
200+ cars at the World 100, right? Paying the purse through the pit gate, friends. You could pay a nice purse if you had 100+ sprints with 5 people average per car buying pit passes. Instead you have 20 cars at some events. Either the purse suffers or the ticket price and the consumer suffer (or the promoter with a half-full grandstand). One or the other... you can't have your cake & eat it too, after all.
Glad to see someone else applauds the PBR model. Thanks, HC. I've plead that case for years online. Don't reinvent the wheel... we can see what works just fine.
Ted Johnson was a necessary evil IMHO to the travelers. They didn't love him... they loved the $$$ he enabled them to run for. He bought their loyalty by giving guys a chance to make a living. Ted made some men wealthy with his business model.
A post above mentioned the reliance of the WoO upon local cars to fill the field. Agreed. Problem with that philosophy is that 410s aren't what they used to be. (oh darn... another 360 vs. 410 argument...) The NHRA didn't fold when they restricted motor sizes in some divisions. (prostock, for example). When they went 1000 ft... they didn't fold. Did you remember that Cup cars ran HEMIs? Multiple downsizing of those motors and they're stronger than ever.
Spec head 360s are the answer. Sorry. It's true. 1/2 second time difference won't matter AT ALL. You'll still have the same people spending more money & winning more races. What you'll gain are 50-75 car fields nightly and tighter racing. Unhook the cars a TON and you'll have outrageous racing. Rock hard tires... flat wings run at a limited angle... smaller wings... no nose wing... lots of crazy ideas out there to unhook the cars.
These motors aren't cheap but at least a local guy can run his 10 year old Wesmar ASCS motor and do just fine. It's been done before. They didn't pay $40k for that bullet last winter... they paid $8-10k for it.
Unhooked spec head 360s, 75 cars/night. If I had the money... this wouldn't be talk... it would be fact. All those tracks not good enough for the WoO... we'd be there.
The economics of racing... I can't go see a WoO race at the Devil's Bowl or Lawton or OKC or Tulsa or Big H or North TX Motor Speedway or Memphis Motorsports Park or Battlegrounds or even TMS... a track built exclusively for the WoO. I've enjoyed races at each of these sites. No WoO race... the track goes away.
You're going to tell me if each of those former tracks had 2-3 WoO races with a good crowd they wouldn't still be around? Economics... racing doesn't make sense and probably never will.
|
When did Devils Bowl close down and how did I miss that? Wow, my nephew raced out there just a few weeks ago.
I largely agree with much of what you're saying SGIT. I would much rather see a 360 race with 45 or 50 cars than 25 cars at a WoO show. I'm not sure I follow your logic in the last couple of paragraphs. The closure of Memphis Motorsports Park had nothing to do with not having a World of Outlaws race, nor did the closure of OKC. As far as I know, at least three of those tracks are still around.
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
07:52:34 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/18/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
24
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Dryslick Willie on October 06 2011 at 07:15:27 AM
When did Devils Bowl close down and how did I miss that? Wow, my nephew raced out there just a few weeks ago.
I largely agree with much of what you're saying SGIT. I would much rather see a 360 race with 45 or 50 cars than 25 cars at a WoO show. I'm not sure I follow your logic in the last couple of paragraphs. The closure of Memphis Motorsports Park had nothing to do with not having a World of Outlaws race, nor did the closure of OKC. As far as I know, at least three of those tracks are still around.
|
I really do not understand what makes a 45 or 50 car show better for the sport than a 25 car show. And this has nothing to do with an ASCS vs WoO issue.
With a 40 car field, there are at least 20 going home having lost good money by being paid nothing but perhaps a little tow money. How sustainable is that?
I would much prefer to see 25 cars at a WoO event getting paid and another 25 racing somewhere else down the road where they will also get paid and be able to make it out next week to entertain us at their local track.
I have never been to a 25 car sprint car race and been upset about the number of cars in attendance when I know that only about 20 of them will be leaving with a check for more than their pit passes cost.
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
08:53:25 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
01/19/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
1195
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: johna on October 06 2011 at 07:52:34 AM
I really do not understand what makes a 45 or 50 car show better for the sport than a 25 car show. And this has nothing to do with an ASCS vs WoO issue.
With a 40 car field, there are at least 20 going home having lost good money by being paid nothing but perhaps a little tow money. How sustainable is that?
I would much prefer to see 25 cars at a WoO event getting paid and another 25 racing somewhere else down the road where they will also get paid and be able to make it out next week to entertain us at their local track.
I have never been to a 25 car sprint car race and been upset about the number of cars in attendance when I know that only about 20 of them will be leaving with a check for more than their pit passes cost.
|
Johna,
I can understand your point of view but if I hear that there are 40-50 cars at a race vs 25 I'm more inclined to go to that race.
If I was just a casual race fan and didn't care who the outlaws were but was interested in a sprint car race in general....I'm going to the larger show.
The more cars at a show, the more interests, and more fans. As the show/ race grows, in cars and attendance, then you can start to spread the purse out a little further.
Keep It Real
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
09:23:34 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/18/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
24
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 06, 2011 at
09:24:09 AM by johna
Reply to:
Posted By: YungWun24 on October 06 2011 at 08:53:25 AM
Johna,
I can understand your point of view but if I hear that there are 40-50 cars at a race vs 25 I'm more inclined to go to that race.
If I was just a casual race fan and didn't care who the outlaws were but was interested in a sprint car race in general....I'm going to the larger show.
The more cars at a show, the more interests, and more fans. As the show/ race grows, in cars and attendance, then you can start to spread the purse out a little further.
|
I understand your point also, but I think it's entirely wrong that the true casual fan cares. Only an experienced sprint car fan cares. If a business has a hospitality tent with new fans at a race... or some kid drags his dad to their first sprint car race, they aren't looking at car count. They are there for the feature event.
Find me another form of motorsports besides dirt racing where fans really care how many extra cars show up that didn't make the main event? NASCAR? IndyCar? NHRA?
The two major things, we as sprint car fans seem to care about the most when evaluating the quality of an event are: 1. How much the winner gets paid and 2. How many extra cars showed up. In my opinion, neither of those should be extremely high on the list.
What does this week's NASCAR race pay to win? Or the Nationwide race? Or even the truck race? I don't see it advertised anywhere. My neighbor driving 6 hours to this week's race doesn't seem to care much either.
Perhaps it's due to the fact that a dirt feature and heats don't take that long to run and to give people their money's worth we need the extra races from the B-Main on back. But when you are relying on B and C mains for part of the night's entertainment, then spread the purse back through those races and pay them like at Nationals. Otherwise, we shouldn't complain that a local racer didn't show up to support a big event just to donate $500 to the sport.
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
09:51:15 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/27/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
281
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Some Guy In Texas on October 05 2011 at 06:47:39 PM
Thanks to all for not going in the usual direction on this forum. Interesting posts.
If I'm not mistaken... the car count at a big late model race is dramatically different than a WoO sprint race. There are a handful of WoO races with a nice count... but an awful lot of short fields and several of cars were 360s showing up for a check.
200+ cars at the World 100, right? Paying the purse through the pit gate, friends. You could pay a nice purse if you had 100+ sprints with 5 people average per car buying pit passes. Instead you have 20 cars at some events. Either the purse suffers or the ticket price and the consumer suffer (or the promoter with a half-full grandstand). One or the other... you can't have your cake & eat it too, after all.
Glad to see someone else applauds the PBR model. Thanks, HC. I've plead that case for years online. Don't reinvent the wheel... we can see what works just fine.
Ted Johnson was a necessary evil IMHO to the travelers. They didn't love him... they loved the $$$ he enabled them to run for. He bought their loyalty by giving guys a chance to make a living. Ted made some men wealthy with his business model.
A post above mentioned the reliance of the WoO upon local cars to fill the field. Agreed. Problem with that philosophy is that 410s aren't what they used to be. (oh darn... another 360 vs. 410 argument...) The NHRA didn't fold when they restricted motor sizes in some divisions. (prostock, for example). When they went 1000 ft... they didn't fold. Did you remember that Cup cars ran HEMIs? Multiple downsizing of those motors and they're stronger than ever.
Spec head 360s are the answer. Sorry. It's true. 1/2 second time difference won't matter AT ALL. You'll still have the same people spending more money & winning more races. What you'll gain are 50-75 car fields nightly and tighter racing. Unhook the cars a TON and you'll have outrageous racing. Rock hard tires... flat wings run at a limited angle... smaller wings... no nose wing... lots of crazy ideas out there to unhook the cars.
These motors aren't cheap but at least a local guy can run his 10 year old Wesmar ASCS motor and do just fine. It's been done before. They didn't pay $40k for that bullet last winter... they paid $8-10k for it.
Unhooked spec head 360s, 75 cars/night. If I had the money... this wouldn't be talk... it would be fact. All those tracks not good enough for the WoO... we'd be there.
The economics of racing... I can't go see a WoO race at the Devil's Bowl or Lawton or OKC or Tulsa or Big H or North TX Motor Speedway or Memphis Motorsports Park or Battlegrounds or even TMS... a track built exclusively for the WoO. I've enjoyed races at each of these sites. No WoO race... the track goes away.
You're going to tell me if each of those former tracks had 2-3 WoO races with a good crowd they wouldn't still be around? Economics... racing doesn't make sense and probably never will.
|
Hey Tex. Typically, I enjoy most of your posts. They seem insightful, generally knowledgeable, well thought out, and peppered with some well-placed sarcasm when required. This time seems no different, but there are a few points I disagree with. Regarding paying purses at the pit gate, the flaw I see with that philosophy when it comes to WoO is that all the "full-time" teams get passes for reduced entry to the pits (1/2 price if memory serves, unless something changed recently). Some even used to get corporate/sponsor passes for free entry. So, with that said, when you have 15-20 traveling teams, bringing 4-8 people each through the pit gate each night, that throws quite a damper on the overall funds generated for the track. As far as 360s go, I know there are a LOT of fans out there, yourself included, but I am not one of them. Sure, I've been to quite a number of 360 races, but IMO they can't compare even a little bit to 410s. Here's my take: As we all know, a 360 sprint doesn't have the torque a 410 does, so it's not just a matter of 60CID less and a 1/2 to 1 second a lap differential due to the lesser HP. Virtually EVERYthing is different about the two classes, IMO. Just ask most any good driver who has raced both (Shane Stewart, both Swindells, McCarl, etc) how different each one is. The way 360s drive and handle (typically WFO every lap), the way they enter and exit the corners, the way the chassis and shocks are setup, etc, are all noticeably different to a seasoned sprint car guy. (I consider myself one of these BTW  ) It's not that I dislike the them, but I will drive hours on end for a 410 show, but you'll rarely find me at my local track an hour away for 360s. I doubt that makes me less of a fan or a bad guy. Just how it is I guess (different strokes for different folks). To me, the better solution is a 'spec' 410 rule. Possibly a compression limit, basic porting allowed, but none of the exotic high-dollar sh*t. Not squeezing 18 or 19:1 out of an engine would drastically reduce the frequency or rebuilds. I definitely wouldn't change the sq. footage of the wings either (I think that would severely hamper the show they put on), but I do think a harder tire rule could be very beneficial, in several ways. It would not only help unhook the cars, making the need for buku power a non issue. It would also decrease the tire bill for teams, since harder tires should last longer (and hopefully blow out less). And lower budget/local teams could buy used/cheap/but still very usable tires from the better financed teams when they replace them for new. All these factors save $ all the way around without really hampering the show that these acrobatic beasts put on for us humble fans. Sorry for the run on paragraph but somehow the forum doesn't support Chrome and always lumps my sentences/paragraphs together regardless how I type them.
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
09:53:54 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/27/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
281
|
|
|
Oh, and also, I don't recall Tex saying DB closed, just that they haven't had a WoO show in years. Carry on, my peoples. :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
10:29:47 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
07/17/2011
|
|
Posts:
|
112
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: henry chinaski on October 04 2011 at 02:02:10 PM
Why not work out a deal with some sort of corporate backer that is akin to the pro bull riders concept? Say 20 race dates invitation only so you don't get all the squirrels stinking up the program and pay a larger purse (25-50grand to win). Hold the events only at tracks capable of seating lots of people and filling those seats too. Allow the teams to chase other races on off dates to fill the financial gap and make the series mean something special. Broadcast live VIA online feed to start out (no charge that's what advertisers are for) build the concept slowly and then get a tv deal. I know its all pipedreams...
|
Great place to start. Many of the events are already in place. KR, Gold Cup, KN, Silver Cup, Dirt Cup, Iron Man, etc, etc. I would go so far also as to take the lids off in those areas, and at the big events, that are run without the wing, therebye bringing those fans and cars into the fold. I agree, invitation only, not interested in the number of cars, 25-30 is plenty as long as it's the right 25-30. If you had 8-10 travelling full time you could count on and sent invites to a couple dozen more of the top cars in a given region, allowing for a few no shows, this could be great stuff. Great thread. Some interesting ideas.
REMEMBER OUR TROOPS!!!
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
02:53:06 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/29/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
35
|
|
|
|
In the 80's the WoO's had an average of 14 drivers running for points. So car count has stayed close to the same. But there are less weekly 410 cars running at tracks today. With the 360 and 305 classes in Iowa slowly growing I am sure that hurts the 410 count. I would like to see the world of outlaws run like they did in the late 70's and early 80's wing and non wing shows. If they have a two day show run one night with wings the next night without. I would pay to see that! JMO
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
03:16:24 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
01/19/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
1195
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: moonchild on October 06 2011 at 02:53:06 PM
In the 80's the WoO's had an average of 14 drivers running for points. So car count has stayed close to the same. But there are less weekly 410 cars running at tracks today. With the 360 and 305 classes in Iowa slowly growing I am sure that hurts the 410 count. I would like to see the world of outlaws run like they did in the late 70's and early 80's wing and non wing shows. If they have a two day show run one night with wings the next night without. I would pay to see that! JMO
|
Amen to that... I would love to see more topless action around IA, coupled up with the WOO/ASCS/Whatever.
Keep It Real
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
04:54:16 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
06/19/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
445
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: johna on October 06 2011 at 07:52:34 AM
I really do not understand what makes a 45 or 50 car show better for the sport than a 25 car show. And this has nothing to do with an ASCS vs WoO issue.
With a 40 car field, there are at least 20 going home having lost good money by being paid nothing but perhaps a little tow money. How sustainable is that?
I would much prefer to see 25 cars at a WoO event getting paid and another 25 racing somewhere else down the road where they will also get paid and be able to make it out next week to entertain us at their local track.
I have never been to a 25 car sprint car race and been upset about the number of cars in attendance when I know that only about 20 of them will be leaving with a check for more than their pit passes cost.
|
I think the difference in a 24 car show vs a race with 50 cars showing up is the fans feeling like they got their money's worth. With today's NASCAR fan, they have grown accustomed to long races. Take that same person to a Sprint car race with 24 or less cars on hand and they typically only get to see 4 races (3 heats and a feature).
If I won the lottery and could afford to start up my own series; I always liked the old Sprint Bandits format. Heats, qualifiers and then features. This gives the fans more races and it makes the racers have to earn points in 2 seperate races for the feature lineup. I don't think it really matters if you qualify or draw with this format because it gives that additional opportunity to earn points for the feature.
I tend to agree with the post referring to the larger fields and half of them are going home with just enough $ for the tow rig's ride home. I believe a damn good show can be put on with counts less than 30 cars, but I would bet the fans would prefer to see more than just 3 heats and a feature. I mean, how many times have you seen a 6 car B-feature and thought it was a joke that they just didn't add the other 2 cars to the back of the A-main?
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
06:18:15 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/07/2006
|
|
Posts:
|
5621
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: johna on October 06 2011 at 07:52:34 AM
I really do not understand what makes a 45 or 50 car show better for the sport than a 25 car show. And this has nothing to do with an ASCS vs WoO issue.
With a 40 car field, there are at least 20 going home having lost good money by being paid nothing but perhaps a little tow money. How sustainable is that?
I would much prefer to see 25 cars at a WoO event getting paid and another 25 racing somewhere else down the road where they will also get paid and be able to make it out next week to entertain us at their local track.
I have never been to a 25 car sprint car race and been upset about the number of cars in attendance when I know that only about 20 of them will be leaving with a check for more than their pit passes cost.
|
Good point. If it's going to make the difference between getting out of there at 10:30 as opposed to 2am I'll take the 25 cars any day. More is not always better and it's pretty much always the same 25 that get into the big show with a half dozen or so that have a legitimate shot at the win. I'd rather cut to the chase and see enough cars to run three Heats, B Main, Dash and Feature than sit there all night while a couple dozen also rans put around three seconds slower than the fast guys. That is booorrrrrinnnnggggg!!! 
Stan Meissner
|
|
|
|
October 06, 2011 at
06:51:09 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/30/2004
|
|
Posts:
|
1999
|
|
|
Why run a B if there are only 25 cars and you are going to start 24 in the A? USAC used to say 21 cars was the perfect number. 3 7 car heats, top 4 to the A. 9 car B with top 4 to the A. 16 cars started the A.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 07, 2011 at
06:56:37 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/17/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
2265
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: racinartist2 on October 06 2011 at 09:53:54 AM
Oh, and also, I don't recall Tex saying DB closed, just that they haven't had a WoO show in years. Carry on, my peoples. :D
|
What SGIT said could be interpreted differently, but he listed two or three active tracks along with two or three closed tracks. In the following paragraph he states "these former tracks" and implied that the track dries up and dies without the WoO. I took it as he was stating that all of those tracks had closed, but I'm sure he didn't mean it that way.
The old track in Royce City was bound to be a football stadium whether it hosted WoO races or not. Are we saying that the OKC Fairgrounds would still be open if they had just hosted a couple of WoO races each year? I don't think so. It looked to me like OKC was doing just fine without the WoO before the fair board shut it down. I think we may just be confusing the real issues.
|
|
|
