Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Hey all, New to sprint car racing and looking for some advice on building first engine. 305 race saver specs, stock cast block 510/535 cam rule Brodix 305 race saver spec head 10.25 cr 48# crank ferrous rods, constant flow alc etc.looking for rod and piston combos anybody runs with any specific crank. I have icon IC957's trying to decide if it is feasible to run the new 48# eagle cast steel crank I have and if so what rods to use. If so do I go with the lightest eagle H beam forged rods I can get or with the 48# minimum can a guy go too light on rods and pistons to be able to properly balance the bottom end? Hate to spend $600 for rods I'd just have to put on e-bay still in the box. I know I would have to turn down the rear flange counter weight almost a 1/4 inch to clear the motor plate and that will add to the chore of balancing the crank but they used to do that all the time and some still do. Durability and RPM limits are the question here. One guy claims he won't run less than $1000 forged crank and still haven't seen him win a race. Talked to French Grimes on the phone and he runs cast crank and rods with good pistons no problem. I know he can win. Some guys claim to be turning 8200 r's with cast crank and another tells me the valves on these spec heads float above 6200 r's???? Getting a lot of B-S mis-info out there but from all I've read seems to be some great advice and experience here.

Also trying to figure out what cam to run and the pump drive/seal set up. fuel and steering off the rear of the cam.What bearings to run, mfg's will take all the money you are willing to throw there way but a $100 set of bearings might do just as well as a $350 set. Or some where in between? Crank damper is another question? Just taking the block and pistons to a shop telling them build what they want is not an option on my budget.

Any helpful advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

VictorSlik

We are new to the 305 deal this year but I can tell you for sure you won't be able to turn the motor more than 7200 rpm with legal valve springs.

Keith Sr.

Keith Sr
MCINTYRE MOTORSPORTS

Like Brettco said. Get advise from ONE person and ONE person only. I've learned from experience.

I hope that you got advise from someone who knows what is going on, Brandon !

Victor, ok you can keep this deal very simple without breaking the bank. We have run the Race saver Pa305 series for several years. I have built my own engines, so I will give you a little insight and what we have learned. I have built several engine configurations all which have won in the series. First off with these heads, the valves will start to float right around 7200 to 7300 rpms with legal springs. If you are racing in any of the race savers series the springs will get checked at some point and time whether through the engine sealing process or at the track, so it is pretty hard to get away with changing the springs and not getting caught. We have raced and have been checked in Pa, NY & NJ with regard to this. They will also check the lift which is very critical since the cams are custom ground to the race savers specs. I highly recommend you purchase the proper gauge and have it checked when the engine is sealed so you know where you stand with the techs gauge and yours, we have also been checked for this. To eliminate any issues with this you will have to purchase an extra set of push rods as once your existing cam and push rods seat in, the lift will change and most likely it will be illegal. We found out that the lift is not very critical and does not have to be run on the very edge as some people will tell you. One thing you will want to do with the heads and it is legal and that is change the rocket studs, take the ones that come with the heads and throw them in the trash. Buy a set of ARP in the solid yellow with blue outline package, these are made in the USA and every 3rd one in the pack will be stamped ARP. They run roughly $100.00 a set. Great investment, we broke the originals on the dyno! Do not let the engine machine shop talk you into converting the block from a 2 bolt to a 4 bolt, not worth the extra money. Have done it both ways, did not see any difference in horsepower or when the car gets wrecked. If you take a severe rear hit it will most likely damage the crank area anyway. Just the nature of the beast with the 305 blocks. We have used both the Chevy Mercury marine cranks and Scat cranks. The Chevy crank you have to turn the flange down (which you stated) to fit the motor plate. The Scat crank for these engines is only a couple of dollars more and they meet the rules. There are many crank mfg's out there, just how much money do you want to spend. We found out these where the cheapest way to go. We found that PBM makes a real nice set of rods (USA Made) and hold up very well. The set runs about $400.00. Wiseco pistons makes a real nice lightweight flat top piston for this series. The set runs about $550.00. We run Comp Cams with their bearings. They make a nice cam for this series that works real well also, about $350.00. There are numerous cam shaft makers out there and they are all good and will custom grind to specs, we just pref Comp.Cams. I have run standard G.M performance dampeners and also the Jones system, both work well, but the G.M set up is allot cheaper with the dual pulley system. Purchase a quality aluminium water pump (Moroso) makes a really nice unit for under $250.00. Don't over spend on an aluminium oil pan, buy a good Canton oil pan, you will save a couple of hundred dollars. Plus there are allot of good used Steel wet sump oil pans out there, once again we pref Canton. Find a good used Hilborn injection 2 3/16 works the best with these heads and a nice vertex mag. to keep it simple. Purchase a good set of roller rockers, we use Scorpion and they will custom make then at 1.5, 1.6 or 1.7. 1.5 is the most common used for this application. We have built our engines right on the edge of the compression rule, but we have found lowering the compression helps greatly with the engine reliability. These engines can range from an engine builder anywhere $7500.00 to $15,000.00. If you watch your pennies as we have and have a reliable machine shop, you can build one as cheap as $6500.00 complete with new heads. The Race savers series is a great series and Mr. Grimes did a hell of a job at putting it together and all the series do a great job of keeping it together and fair for everyone to race at a reasonable cost. The only other thing I would recommend is doing research and find what will best fit your needs and budget. Any way don't know if this will help you out, hopefully it has given you some insight to the engine costs. Take care Dave Wilson

Always remember the soldier that fights for our freedom everyday. Proudly Retired USAF

Can you run a rev kit ? I you want to win Races you better ger you RPM up.

If there are guys winning at 7200 you can beat them with a little more RPM.

Great feedback Mr Wilson and others, Thank You. What about pump drives and rear cam seals. I don't find these anywhere. Am I missing something or don't you have to use a drive spud and a rear cam seal for oil control.

If..."the lift is not very critical and does not have to be run on the very edge as some people will tell you" why would one pay $350 just for a custom grind cam when CompCams sells a tight lash oval track cam under$200.

Regarding cam wear/valve train seating, do you mean to expect more wear on the cam base profle than the active profile? And how would new push rods overcome this when being teched?

I got lots more questions but I am learning I think.

Thanks again,

VictorSlik

You surely have a Speedway motors catalog dont you? They sell 305 cams already tapped for a cam spud,and they sell the spuds and seals also. JR motorsports in Iowa sells solid lifter cams for under $100 and will tap it for a spud for a little extra.You will need to use a good quality racing oil for a solid lifter cam with a good zinc content,Brad Penn racing oil is good stuff.

Wow Dirtybeer I have seen the speedway adds for cams already tapped but somehow must have missed the seals and drive spuds. Probably concentrating too much on getting a recommendation from comp cams and was already frustrated not getting a recommendation from them when I looked on speedways website. I will look again.

Thanks again,

Victor

Victor, The $350.00 for the cam is drilled and tapped for the rear drive system (also comes with bearings for that price), which is what you want to use. Also yes you can purchase a tight lash cam for $200.00, but there are little tricks to custom grinding the cams that are legal by the rules written and you can pick up a little more horsepower by doing this. Once again do some research and see what best fits the tracks you are racing at. You can pick up a good used power steering pump and fuel pump at a very reasonable price and this keeps everything in the cockpit area of the car. Try to purchase ones that have been flow checked so you know they are good. The fuel pumps we used were a Waterman 400 or a Hilborn 0. The 305's do not need the fuel pressure of a 358/360 or 410 would need. You can use a larger pump, just lean it out a lot more. The front drive P/S and F/P systems are to hard to maintain as well as mud and rocks taking out the extra belt. There are several new style serpentine belt systems, but they are very expensive. When installing the rear cam seal in the block, make sure to put a little bit of 100% silicone along the edge of the seal where it meets the block. Just a backup to prevent leakage. The seal has a self sealing ring inside, once the cam spud is put in place it seals tight. Put a little bit of oil on when installing the spud. Usually the flat tappets will wear just enough to change the lift height, if you use roller lifters, then the wear is very minimal on the cam side as well as the lifters. The parts will still wear after a number of races and we have used the next size up from a standard push rod to retrieve the proper lift for the series. Once again we have found you do not have to run the lift height on the edge. Oh I did forget one thing, purchase a quality big block oil pump, we use Melling and they have the most consistent flow out of all the oil pumps. Anyway hope that clarifies some things. Take Care Dave Wilson

These engines will turn more than 7200 RPM. I keep my springs fresh (replaced every year) and I run 76-7800 on a regular basis with no problems (I've seen 8k, but I don't think they'll live long at that RPM), and it's got the original rocker studs that came with the heads in 2005. I run a stock crank with a cheap set of H beam rods and good forged JE pistons. Don't let anyone tell you that they'll only run 7200. The heads stop making more power past ~6900, but it doesn't fall off, and running more RPM will allow you to run a shorter gear to come out of the corner better. for big 1/4's and almost 3/8's I'll run something in the 6.9X-7.0X range. Plus running the shorter gear frees the car up so you don't have to use the brakes much/at all to help change what the car is in the corner.

The key to the 305 engine is the camshaft. Turned my 305, 7600 - 8000 all year...no engine failure. This is a Midwest 305 legal engine last year. 14 feature wins in 2010 & 2011.

More intelligent sounding advice from folks who have been there thanks, and I'll be glad to hear from anyone else else who cares to share their experience. I'm going to get on the phone to Comp Cams later today to see what they can come up with(I've been patiently trying to do the e-mail recommendation thing with them for 3 weeks). The cheaper Eagle H rods to go with their cast steel crank and the icon IC957 flat tops. I'm all for replacing any hardware with ARP unless somebody convinces me it's not necessary. I am wondering if maybe the race saver heads had some issues with rocker studs early on that may have been resolved by now. Anybody else had issues with OEM studs on the spec heads? Will run the waterman 400 pump came with the chassis I bought. Most everybody around here has their initial tuning done by Allard Machine on their chassis dyno. Cost $450 and if I understand correctly that will include what I'm considering an "on the car" flow testing of all the fuel injection. Hillborn 2 3/16 "327" manifold from e-bay seems to be in good shape with only mild to very mild port work. Couldn't find any used nozzles so ordered Kinsler 3 1/2" 41# nozzles. Kinsler select-a-jet in the secondary and Kinsler adjustable high speed bypass from e-bay. Vertex external-coil mag off C-list locally. The steel cam gear looks good, advance unknown at least without taking a closer look. Any advice on setting up or checking the mag out ahead of time or do I have to send it out too?

Any advice on rod and main bearings?

Big Block oil pump, interesting.

I wish I had someone local to go to for specific advice especially in regards to the local tracks but I just don't seem to find anyone who likes or gets along with me as well as I do. I continue to welcome comments/advice.

Thanks again to all,

VictorSlik

Huggins also has 305 cams, I would also run a accupump or same thing from moroso. Do every thing you can to control oil in crankase

nkcas. Windage trays , baffel at pump. I did not run a accusump and blew up motor a knoxville

I would have to say no to the cast crank, if you plan to ever go to DevilsBowl or Kilgore

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/product.asp?ProdID=21309&CtgID=8462

http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/product.asp?ProdID=6922&CtgID=21452

you also dont need a bigblock pump a 10552c melling works great.

This is all you need for a crank and rods.

like the others I turn mine 7800-8000 no problems just keep up with the springs.

I have this crank and rods with the same pistons you have and mine has been running for 2 years with no problems.

You should talk to Jimmy Allard about a cam ,he's done lots of dyno testing on all of them.

Dont know any racesaver guys around here who run accusumps, maybe the midwest guys do. Call huggins cams and tell them you want a legal racesaver cam and he will hook you up. I think i paid $325 or something like that. Also if you call french himself i bet you he will give you part numbers and real insite on what the engines can and can't do power wise. The key is building a engine that will last three years and still be fast. Turning a engine that high is dangerous if you want it to last. You can build them real cheap but you won't be turning no 7800. I don't even think we turn our 360 more the 7400. But thats just us..

Is this Curt? I ran at Kilgore with my bone stock crank, and I'll do it at the bowl this year. I didn't perform well at Kilgore but that was due to setup, not the engine. The only "nice" parts I've got in my engine are rods and pistons, even the cam is small compared to the ones they're running now.

Yes its me, i know there are motors out there running stock cranks, powder metal rods and hyper pistons . But you are asking for trouble going to big tracks with those parts. They will last a while but will eventually crack and break . Its not worth risking the entire engine to save $400.