Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Am I am missing something? I thought Knoxville always ran a 2 day midget special early in the summer. When reviewing the 2011 schedule, I'm not seeing it.

Was cool to see, but dont think they ran the Midget Nationals last year either. I could be wrong but Im almost sure they didnt, and Im not looking it up lol.

The last event was contested in late May/2009. They did not have it last year. The half mile tracks seem to be hard on the midget engines causing a low turn-out.

Sadly,the car count was not the only issue.The grandstands were so sparsely used that every year we asked ourselves,"How long can they continue to absorb this loss ?"

Ever since the first race my husband took me to I have been a fan of the tiny little cars that seemed to dart in every direction at once but that was a long time ago in 1951.Today's fans seem to be more interested in speed and they do not identify with the small cars that look nothing like their own family cars.

Quite simply,we got old and unable to climb up into the stands......or we died !

Bud's Bride

I really hate to see this event end. I believe weather got it last year. I know Knoxville tries very hard to help promote , support and uphold all forms of sprint / open wheel racing, but if you don't sell enough tickets sooner or later tough decisions have to be made. This was always a very good show. Several of our local drivers were able to find rides each year and all the big names showed up. I do understand that midgets at Knoxville or any 1/2 mile + track adds another variable to the equation as far as being hard on equipment and safety concerns goes. Just want to say thanks to the past participants and let you know many fans will really miss this.

It ended 2 years ago.

Races were great, but the way the show was ran (particularly on Friday night) by USAC turned off some fans (me included).

With the sanction fee that USAC required, which led to ticket prices over $20, the fans stayed away as they only brought 22 cars for Friday night and only 20 for Saturday (only 18 of which actually started the race on Saturday night).

I loved watching the midgets, but the show was MUCH better prior to the raceway using USAC as the sanctioning body beginning in 2008 (so was car count for that matter).

As I recall, due to USAC messing around between races instead of having cars ready to push off, we didn't get out of there Friday night until after midnight (for 22 Midgets and less than 20 cars for the Master's Classic) in 2009.

Make it an open event and you might get a car count and fan count (provided that tickets don't cost $20), the purse for the Friday night show was less than the 360's run for weekly, yet tickets were higher than what a regular Saturday Night show costs for 305's, 360's and 410's.

I hope that midgets return at some point in the future, but having expensive tickets and very few cars doesn't get much repeat business through the gates....

Agree: I would have to say the admission price was NOT in line with the event.

I saw no possible reason to run that late either (good point.)

One of the Knoxville midget races I remember the cars got on the bottom and we could not even see them from the stands due to the depth of the berm the height of the guardrail and the angle we were sitting at.

Yes we did move as there were empty seats anywhere you wanted to sit but to no avail.

They looked like .......'midgets' (so small and hard to see) .... oh wait ...they were !!!!

I have seen a few midget events (maybe 7 or 8) over the years here and there and IMHO midgets show best on a 1/4 mile track or so.

I went to a midget race at 16th St. Speedway years ago (in an old baseball field/stadium) it was a daytime event and the track was as flat as a pancake.

The racing was crazy nuts .... rolled em over ...sat many of them back on their wheels and many went back to racing....it was a good show.

Saw one in east central Illinois at a short track county fair (forgot the town/track) in the late 1990's I'd guess, it was well worth the price and effort to drive to see.

It was NOT Spoon River but I have seen them there once and that was a pretty good midget and winged sprint show that night also.

At Knoxville ... they seem to get strung out and it can almost seem like a hot lap session ....not a race ....I AM NOT BAD MOUTHING MIDGETS ....just the track needs to fit their 'size' and speeds to make a good show ..a GREAT show in my opinion.

S.H.S.

Just to inject some facts into this...

The major reason that Friday's program ran long in 2009 was due to the fatal crash of Chad McDaniel. It was a really tough night to be at the track, and put a damper on the whole weekend.

USAC actually began sanctioning the race in 2006. There were 45 cars that year and 58 in 2007. 44 cars returned in 2008, but then the other sanctions who were helping to support the Knoxville Midget Nationals pulled out of the event. Most of their members/competitors did not want to compete on such a big track.

The sanction fee of USAC is miniscule, and only those who don't really know ever bring that up.

Yes, the purse was not all that high. It was actually barely more than a standard USAC Midget event. That has been part of the problem for not just the Knoxville race, but the Hut Hundred at Terre Haute, as well. The problems at Belleville will show anyone that midgets are not drawing fields on big tracks these days, and opening the show up has not helped anything.

It's a shame that it didn't work out at Knoxville for the Midgets, because I saw some pretty good races there...

Excuuuuuuuuse me? Belleville had more cars last year than the previous two years. Not that many more but a step in the right direction at least. You should stick to your expertise in sprint car video games because about the only other thing you are good at is trying to convince everyone that USAC is never the problem. Most of the other clubs pulled the plug on their involvement due to Kevin Miller's arrogance - his deluded belief that USAC doesn't NEED anyone else. The reality is that USAC could screw up a free lunch.

I've been at Belleville the last few years. Have you?

It looks to me like the exact same amount of cars ran last year on Saturday as in 2008. The overall amount of cars that ran in 2010 was 36. The overall amount of cars to take the track in 2009 was 35. So, in reality, you are correct. Car count went up by one overall last season. I would have expected a flood of cars who hated USAC to fill the infield, since the terrible tyrants were finally gone. But, it was basically the same field that we had the year before...

I won't argue that USAC did not make quite a few mistakes at Belleville in the last few years, but to actually believe that the dwindling car counts were solely due to their involvement would be ignorant.

Spridge,

Even without the unfortunate incident where Chad McDaniel perished, the races that Friday night still ran far too long for a 22 car field and wouldn't have gotten over before midnight.

I have no idea what the USAC sanction fee is, but I know that even if it's $1000, that $$ would be better spent on the purse $$ to attract more cars. Prior to USAC taking over completely, the event was sactioned by multiple groups, USAC wanted and asked Cappy to be the Sole Sanctioning body beginning in 2008, car counts began dropping immediately, and the last year (2009) had almost 50 on the pre-entry list, yet only 22 showed...(try to spin that fact into positive PR for USAC sanctioning)

Midget racing has a lot of problems these days (starting with miniscule purses, high entry fees, and low car counts).

I hope the midgets return to Knoxville, but I'm not a fan of USAC running any shows. They drag it out too long and forget about the FACT that the FANS IN THE STANDS PAY THE PURSE. Without fans in the stands, they might as well not even bother...

Check the car counts by year here http://www.highbanks.org/midgetnationals.asp and let me know what you see. You are right - USAC may not be the problem - but they have also not been part of the solution. Those increasing car counts you see after 1996 have nothing to do with USAC. It had to do with a lot of work by people who did everything they could to get other sanctioning bodies to at least endorse the Midget Nationals. I don't find it ironic at all that the first year under Kevin Miller that the car count plummeted. USAC didn't earn their keep. They didn't add value and, three years ago in particular, they couldn't figure out that you don't screw over a partner and expect get invited back into bed again. If USAC wanted to do the midget nationals a favor they would schedule against them. It would accomplish two things: 1. Show their true colors. 2. It would actually help the car count because even without USAC sanctioning the race the big money teams show up. If some of the smaller teams saw that those 10 to 15 cars weren't going to be there they would likely show up in greater numbers. I've only missed three midget nationals since 1993 so I have been going there for A LOT longer than the past three years. Since you've only been old enough to drive for approximately the past 6 years I'm betting that's a few more than you.

Good post. I forgot that just because one is older makes them more informed. You got me. Obviously you've done a lot for Belleville in all the years you've been going, since things are so great now.

By USAC NOT scheduling against Belleville, does that not show its true colors?

How does it help an event to lose the biggest names there? I'm sure more guys would go to the Knoxville Nationals if they knew the good guys weren't going and they would have a more legitimate chance at the winner's purse, but is that really good for anyone?

Can we get back on the topic of Knoxville yet? Vande77, a couple more things. Are you trying to say that sanctions as a whole are a bad thing? Sanction fees come along with any series, so that must be what you're saying.

I actually remember the entry list problem. The one cited was posted by a fan of teams he thought would be in attendance. It was not published by USAC. Or did you mean one on the Knoxville website? I seem to remember them posting basically the list of drivers who were there the year before as an "entry list"

I don't remember a USAC race finishing after 10:30 pm last season. Just another case of living in the past instead of going by what's happening now. Just like the inability to work with other sanctioning bodies...come back to present-day and let's re-examine that. The USAC Midget opener is being supported by RMMRA, USAC is supporting Badger to bring racing back in their backyard, etc. Personally, I love nothing more than to see multiple groups work together for the common good.

Getting rid of Kevin Miller would be the first step in the right direction.

I meant the one on the Knoxville website, which BTW is updated as PAID pre-entries come in for a particular race (unless for this one event they did it different than they do for all the other major events, which I highly doubt).

Am I a hater of all sanctions, heck no. I enjoy the ASCS, WoO, Sprint Bandits (RIP), POWRI, Badger, CRA (RIP), SCRA (RIP), etc., etc.. What I don't like is when a sanctioning body runs a terrible show, which USAC consistently does.

With the exception of last years non-wing Nationals @ Knoxville, I've never left a USAC race that has gotten over prior to 11:00 PM (even if the car count was in hte low 20's with no Support Class.

IMO, USAC needs to realize the good old days are long gone. They aren't the only game in town, and fans EXPECT you to run and efficient show, not drag it out. Their race operations need a major overhaul, no reason that heat races aren't ready to be pushed off while hte one before has a lap or 2 left (every other sanctioning body seems to understand this), with minimal downtime between races (heats and semi, semi to feature).

Maybe someday they'll understand, but sadly, my guess is not before they have less than 10 cars at a race...

Even the high and mighty WoO realized that race operations had to improve about 7-8 years ago, and cars are ready to be pushed off when the heat before them takes the checker (remember the old days when the heat would take the checker, the pace car would sit for 5 minutes and then leave and the guys would have 5 laps on the pace car to leave their pitstall, let alone push off and get lined up).

Enough ranting, when's it gonna warm up so we can all see some racing?

Hey man...I definitely know where you're coming from, and the reputation from years of mis-managing programs is something it will take years for USAC to overcome. But, like I said, I can't remember ANY USAC race finishing after 10:30pm last season. Honestly, I thought some shows were pushed through too quickly, if anything...I'm not sure what exactly was the problem in the past, but there is definitely no problem with getting done at a reasonable time now.

That entry list deal with Knoxville was a problem only because they weren't getting entries in. So, they basically posted a list of guys from the year before. I remember hitting the message boards and telling people not to expect a lot of those names, or a field that size, because I was pretty sure from talking to teams that the number would be lucky to be 25.

TK, we'll just have to agree to disagree about Miller. I know it can be argued that maybe I am too close to the situation, or something like that, but I definitely think positives have far outweighed negatives with him at the helm...

Just to inject another fact. I posted the entry list on the Knoxville website that was provided to the raceway by USAC...

Midgets had some great action at Knoxville...some of the best races of the year. The bottom line was no fans in the stands...

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It's a shame there were more people in the stands. I only make it to Knoxville maybe once during the year other than Nationals. If I had to pick a weekend to attend, the midget weekend was one of my favorites. Great racing. I seem to remember watching 3 to 4 cars wide going through turn 1. Can't beat that!