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Topic: Civil War Calistoga- Never Again
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August 09, 2009 at
01:43:07 PM
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Just a terrible race track & even a worse racing format. Last weeks Civil War race produced a 19th quick qualifier on the pole of the A main & last night pretty much the same (not sure where Forsberg qualified but guessing around 18th). For qualifying so slow he was rewarded with front row spots in both his heat and main. On the other hand Bobby McMahan who was 2nd quick had to start 6th in his heat and on this no passing race track finishing 5th. For that he got to run the semi where he finished 2nd, & start the main 12th where he went on to finish 10th. So McMahan used up 3 sets of rear tires & at least one front for a tire bill of at least $1500 for $350 A main & $25 B main payout.
After qualifying I talked to 3 drivers who qualified between 10th & 15th & they were all disapointed with their times, little did they know the didn't go slow enough to start on the front row of the main. After the heats the main topic in the pits is the pill draw, not chassis set up, not track conditions , not tire wear, THE PILL DRAW. The pill draw has now become the most important factor in determining who will win the feature. I didn't have a car in the race so it doesn't really matter to me who wins I just want to see good racing & drivers being put at a disadvantage because they qualify well doesn't seem right. Forsberg did a great job dominating from the pole, but had they picked a 4, 6, or 8 instead of a 10, I don't think he would have won starting 10th.
Having a car that has run more than 3 Civil War races they made me become a track member, but this track membership card got me zero discount on my pit pass. This was after they wouldn't let me park near the haulers for free & had to park in the general parking lot for $5 even though I told them I was going in the pits.
Might go back their for the USAC show, but never again for a winged sprint car race.
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August 09, 2009 at
01:49:34 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on August 09 2009 at 01:43:07 PM
Just a terrible race track & even a worse racing format. Last weeks Civil War race produced a 19th quick qualifier on the pole of the A main & last night pretty much the same (not sure where Forsberg qualified but guessing around 18th). For qualifying so slow he was rewarded with front row spots in both his heat and main. On the other hand Bobby McMahan who was 2nd quick had to start 6th in his heat and on this no passing race track finishing 5th. For that he got to run the semi where he finished 2nd, & start the main 12th where he went on to finish 10th. So McMahan used up 3 sets of rear tires & at least one front for a tire bill of at least $1500 for $350 A main & $25 B main payout.
After qualifying I talked to 3 drivers who qualified between 10th & 15th & they were all disapointed with their times, little did they know the didn't go slow enough to start on the front row of the main. After the heats the main topic in the pits is the pill draw, not chassis set up, not track conditions , not tire wear, THE PILL DRAW. The pill draw has now become the most important factor in determining who will win the feature. I didn't have a car in the race so it doesn't really matter to me who wins I just want to see good racing & drivers being put at a disadvantage because they qualify well doesn't seem right. Forsberg did a great job dominating from the pole, but had they picked a 4, 6, or 8 instead of a 10, I don't think he would have won starting 10th.
Having a car that has run more than 3 Civil War races they made me become a track member, but this track membership card got me zero discount on my pit pass. This was after they wouldn't let me park near the haulers for free & had to park in the general parking lot for $5 even though I told them I was going in the pits.
Might go back their for the USAC show, but never again for a winged sprint car race.
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If track management would put more effort into track preparation, the track conditions wouldn't have been so bad and the pill draw wouldn't have been the predominant point of discusion last night. But when the track is one groove-and a bad one at that-then the pill draw becomes all important.
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August 09, 2009 at
03:30:30 PM
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Who ever prepped that track should be embarrassed there was dust in wheel packing.....yes wheel packing...
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August 09, 2009 at
03:39:40 PM
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I must admit after going to Calistoga for most of my life I don't enjoy going there for winged races because it is follow the leader and the track prep isn't too great! I also don't like the pill draw that the CW uses and I wish they had a dash like the GSC does.
Looking forward to the new Golden State King of the
West series schedule!
Winged sprintcars = the fastest and most exciting
racecars on dirt!
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August 09, 2009 at
03:41:19 PM
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But why does the Civil War series have a format where someone can qualify in the bottom half of the field never pass a car all night and win a feature? And none of the car owners want to see this changed?
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August 09, 2009 at
04:09:06 PM
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This message was edited on
August 09, 2009 at
04:13:08 PM by Tiredog
Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on August 09 2009 at 03:41:19 PM
But why does the Civil War series have a format where someone can qualify in the bottom half of the field never pass a car all night and win a feature? And none of the car owners want to see this changed?
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Inertia, probably. It's the way that they've done it for a long time and no one wants to change it.
If the track were properly prepared, there would be more passing. However, I don't think that anyone had anything for Andy last night. After all the green flags, he was pulling out to four or more second leads in about four laps. That car was set up perfectly for the lousy track conditions last night. if the draw had been a zero, I'm not sure that the outcome would have been much different.
In your initial post, you mentioned how the slower qualifiers were up front for the heat races. That's been the way it's been done for many years. The fastes guys have to earn their way into the A main. There have been many races when Andy's been a top five qualifier and had to come from the 3rd row of a heat race...it's the formula that's used and has been used for a long time. GSC used to do the pill draw as well.
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August 09, 2009 at
05:24:57 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on August 09 2009 at 03:41:19 PM
But why does the Civil War series have a format where someone can qualify in the bottom half of the field never pass a car all night and win a feature? And none of the car owners want to see this changed?
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The Outlaws format isn't much different, or any better. If you qualify 13-16, you're on the pole of the heat, where you don't have to pass a car to get into the dash. Fair? Not really, but that's the way it is. For CW shows, I think the 10 and possibly 8 pill should be done away - don't reward cars so far down in qualifying. But for the heats to matter, you need to make the fast cars pass other cars. If a car can' transfer through the heat, do they really deserve to start up front in the feature? Now, if there is no passing in the heats because the track is crap, no format will fix that.
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August 09, 2009 at
06:28:56 PM
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This message was edited on
August 09, 2009 at
06:38:47 PM by gone_racin
Reply to:
Posted By: Tiredog on August 09 2009 at 04:09:06 PM
Inertia, probably. It's the way that they've done it for a long time and no one wants to change it.
If the track were properly prepared, there would be more passing. However, I don't think that anyone had anything for Andy last night. After all the green flags, he was pulling out to four or more second leads in about four laps. That car was set up perfectly for the lousy track conditions last night. if the draw had been a zero, I'm not sure that the outcome would have been much different.
In your initial post, you mentioned how the slower qualifiers were up front for the heat races. That's been the way it's been done for many years. The fastes guys have to earn their way into the A main. There have been many races when Andy's been a top five qualifier and had to come from the 3rd row of a heat race...it's the formula that's used and has been used for a long time. GSC used to do the pill draw as well.
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If the pill draw had been a zero i can safley say the Andy would not have won....And Sean Becker (who would have started on the pole) would have won...he started 10th and finished 5th on a non passing track.....Andy looked good out front but it is a different story when you have to actually pass a car..besides with a zero pill Andy would have started 16th..
Besides i don't think they even have a zero pill..i could be wrong...
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August 09, 2009 at
06:44:08 PM
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0,4,6,8,10
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August 09, 2009 at
07:16:40 PM
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There are a couple of issues here. First, there is some some misguided reverence given to Calistoga. Yes, I realize to you bleacher experts that is blasphemy but I suggest your pull out your grandchild's fairy tale book and look up the story of the Emperor's Clothes. The place is nothing but an over-rated tire and engine eater and promoters if you really want to control the cost of racing (and help prevent parked cars) stop scheduling the place. If you want to see RACING that is not the place to go for wing cars. Just about any other California track is better so what is the attraction? High speeds?Nostalgia? Wine tasting?. Second, the whole notion of a 10 pill (or any other formula that puts the fast guys half way to the back or rewards mediocraty) is fantasy as well. Yes, I know Freddie Rahamer wins "every week" in Pa. from the 22nd starting spot but last time I checked fast Freddie does not race here. Good qualifiers pay a heavy price around here.
Lauda, thanks for putting down your Les Paul long enough to raise the subject.
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August 09, 2009 at
07:38:08 PM
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I'm now playing a Fender Jazz bass.
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August 09, 2009 at
07:53:29 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on August 09 2009 at 07:38:08 PM
I'm now playing a Fender Jazz bass.
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Oh, you gave up the Duck Dunn model Lakland P Bass?
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August 09, 2009 at
07:58:54 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: HDsmoke20 on August 09 2009 at 05:24:57 PM
The Outlaws format isn't much different, or any better. If you qualify 13-16, you're on the pole of the heat, where you don't have to pass a car to get into the dash. Fair? Not really, but that's the way it is. For CW shows, I think the 10 and possibly 8 pill should be done away - don't reward cars so far down in qualifying. But for the heats to matter, you need to make the fast cars pass other cars. If a car can' transfer through the heat, do they really deserve to start up front in the feature? Now, if there is no passing in the heats because the track is crap, no format will fix that.
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in the outlaws if you are fast time you start 4th in your heat, already in a transfer spot. you are already in the dash as well. so what is your point? in the outlaws even if you are not a top qualifier you have a chance at the dash, and since they have a 4 car heat invert, if you are fast you are not at that much of a disadvantage. in the outlaws with a 4 heat format, if you qualify 16th you are on the pole of your heat. in CW with a 6 car invert for 4 heats you could qualify 24th and be on the pole of your heat. if you are on the pole of your heat in woo the fast car in your heat is right behind you. in CW they are 2 rows back. i really don't know why you are comparing the two.
to indy and beyond!!
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August 09, 2009 at
07:59:59 PM
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Currently the band I'm in plays some pretty hard rock, but we have kicked around the idea of forming a Booker T & the MGs tribute band.
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August 09, 2009 at
08:51:35 PM
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My concern is about track condition. Are the same people that prepared the track for the Civil War race doing the same for the USAC/CRA event?
"Ralphie, Senor, muchas gracias por una mas cerveza" -
Scott Daloisio @ the PAS
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August 09, 2009 at
08:58:00 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on August 09 2009 at 07:59:59 PM
Currently the band I'm in plays some pretty hard rock, but we have kicked around the idea of forming a Booker T & the MGs tribute band.
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Well then you would be playing the part of Duck Dunn.
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August 09, 2009 at
11:31:51 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on August 09 2009 at 07:58:54 PM
in the outlaws if you are fast time you start 4th in your heat, already in a transfer spot. you are already in the dash as well. so what is your point? in the outlaws even if you are not a top qualifier you have a chance at the dash, and since they have a 4 car heat invert, if you are fast you are not at that much of a disadvantage. in the outlaws with a 4 heat format, if you qualify 16th you are on the pole of your heat. in CW with a 6 car invert for 4 heats you could qualify 24th and be on the pole of your heat. if you are on the pole of your heat in woo the fast car in your heat is right behind you. in CW they are 2 rows back. i really don't know why you are comparing the two.
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My point was that the Outlaw format doesn't exactly encourage passing in the heats, either, and that you can time mid pack, start on the front row of the heat, not pass a car and still end up in the dash. With a little luck you can end up on the front row of the dash, not pass any cars and end up on the front row of the feature. In CW, the front row cars in the heat usually win the heats, but they start in the back most times, because their time isn't that good.
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August 10, 2009 at
12:19:30 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: HDsmoke20 on August 09 2009 at 11:31:51 PM
My point was that the Outlaw format doesn't exactly encourage passing in the heats, either, and that you can time mid pack, start on the front row of the heat, not pass a car and still end up in the dash. With a little luck you can end up on the front row of the dash, not pass any cars and end up on the front row of the feature. In CW, the front row cars in the heat usually win the heats, but they start in the back most times, because their time isn't that good.
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that might be your point, but joe's point was that the CW format overly penalizes the fast cars. you just pointed out that the woo format does not. so again i ask, why compare the two?
to indy and beyond!!
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August 10, 2009 at
12:26:27 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on August 10 2009 at 12:19:30 AM
that might be your point, but joe's point was that the CW format overly penalizes the fast cars. you just pointed out that the woo format does not. so again i ask, why compare the two?
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I thought his point was that a car (Forsberg) who qualified mid pack was "rewarded" with a front row spot in the heat and a front row spot in the feature when the 10 pill was drawn. My point was the Outlaw format often rewards cars who qualify mid pack and don't have to pass anyone to get a spot in the dash and then possibly a front row start in the feature. On most nights, I think the CW format is pretty decent, but there are always exceptions.
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August 10, 2009 at
01:36:33 AM
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So instead of having someone with a crappy qualifying time come out to win...you want someone with a good qualifying time to start in the front of their heat....and the front of the main....
I wonder if you think that would be exciting to watch...fastest car in the front all night...
If you think that would be a fun race you have a very demented version of fun.
The problem is not the format. It was and has been the TRACK. The format may be boring but that track is terrible. I walked across at the end of the night and it was as hard as concrete. Most drivers and pit crew I talked to said it had been like that after the first group of hot laps. Track prep is terrible there. I don't know what they are doing but they need to fire the guy thats doing it. Looks like they don't do anything to the track until about a couple hours before the races and just dump about 10 truckloads of water on it. Sorry guys but thats not track prep.
And another point on the format. Just take a look at the rest of the races this season. Fast qualifier was in the top of each race. The format works fine for tracks that are setup and worth the dirt they are made of. Calistoga is not. End of story. The only reason winged cars go there is because it is a 1/2 mile and the nostalgic race history there. That car eats up engines and tires like noones business.
They either need to get someone that knows how to prep a dirt track(not a asphalt track) or get rid of the Calistoga dates all together.
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