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Topic: Speaks Up For 360 Sprints: Mike Kostic Debates Rahmer's Recent Comments
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January 12, 2007 at
02:33:54 PM
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This message was edited on
January 12, 2007 at
03:24:33 PM by cubicdollars
Jerry Reigle interviewed Fred Rahmer after Susquehanna Speedway Park announced that they were dropping their weekly Thursday night 410 shows in favor of Sunday night ASCS 360 racing. Rahmer pointedly said that for the purse 360s are no cheaper to run than the 410s where car owners are concerned. Mike Kostic, a URC 360 racer, calls out Rahmer on the subject in this week's Area Auto Racing News.
Speaks Up for 360 Sprints: Racer Mike Kostic Debates Rahmer's Recent Comments
By Mike Kostic
I recently read the Nov. 21, 2006 interview with Fred Rahmer written by Jerry Reigle in his Sprint Car Notebook column.
To state the obvious, Rahmer is one hell of a racer. That said, there was some serious disinformation in your article.
Anyone with a computer can go to the Williams Grove (Pa.), Lincoln (Pa.) and United Racing Company (URC) websites and check this out, but the purse figures that Rahmer quoted for 360 races - at least with URC - are wrong.
In 2006, the Grove and Lincoln both paid $3,000 to win. URC paid $2,000 to win a regular show.
Tenth spot at the Grove was $450, Lincoln $400 and URC $370. 24th spot was $300 at the Grove, $210 at Lincoln and $200 with URC. All three paid $50 tow money.
The big URC 360/358 show at the Grove paid $4,000 to win on a night that Freddie was racing for $3,000.
One of the savings of running 360s is tire cost. A right-rear Hoosier is $198 unless you are on a tire deal. A right-rear URC tire is $138. Since everyone bolts on a new right-rear every night, you can add $50 to each URC payoff spot, which brings the payoff for 10th a lot closer.
360 engines are much more cost effective to run than 410s. True a store-bought 360 will set you back $30,000, but a store bought 410 will cost $40,000. The real cost savings is the run time.
If Jason Johnson has to freshen up his motor every 12 races, he better start buying from Don Ott. A good 360 will go at least 20 races before refreshing. But the real cost savings is you can run a serious 360 program with only two engines. A top of the line 410 team needs three or four engines. Ask Fred how many he has at his disposal.
Fred is right on the chassis costs. All serious 360 teams have chassis that are equal to the top 410 teams. But you can you can build three cars for the price of one top line 410 engine.
No doubt, 410 racing is the premier Sprint Car division. And no doubt, 410 racing is not for everyone. But 360 racing is a hell of a show. The cars are evenly matched. With URC there are a dozen cars that can win on any given night. In 2005, which was a full season, URC had 11 different winners.
One of the reasons that so many 410 car owners have moved to 358 and 360 racing over the years is the overall cost is way out of proportion to the money won.
Make no mistake, no one but a hired driver or wrench is making any money racing Sprint Cars in Central Pennsylvania.
What it comes down to is how far a car owner wants to go in order to satisfy his racing addiction. And unless you absolutely have to have a $300,000 toter home/trailer rig, you can go 360 or 358 racing for a lot less money.
Local 410 racing, and 360 or 358 racing, can't support many full time pros. Talents like Rahmer are the exception to the rule. But for every Fred Rahmer or Moon Byers or Lee Stauffer there are 50 owners or drivers who work a 50-hour week to make a living, then work another 30 hours to go racing.
Does the local Sprint Car scene need full-time professional racers? Absolutely! These guys put the bar up high and put seats in the seats. Does it need the rest of us? Absolutely! Not many folks will pay to see a 10-car A-Main.
This logic applies to local Sprint Car racing in general. 410 racing will always be the main deal, but there is a place and function for 360, 358 and 305 sprints.
Just ask the 10-year-old who got to sit in my car after the last Delaware International URC race.
Editors Note: Mike Kostic is a regular on the URC 360 Sprint Car circuit.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 12, 2007 at
09:08:08 PM
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Make no mistake, no one but a hired driver or wrench is making any money racing Sprint Cars in Central Pennsylvania.
When Fred is paying the bill, maybe he'll feel differently about costs.......
Chuck.....
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January 12, 2007 at
10:25:23 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sprinter25 on January 12 2007 at 09:08:08 PM
Make no mistake, no one but a hired driver or wrench is making any money racing Sprint Cars in Central Pennsylvania.
When Fred is paying the bill, maybe he'll feel differently about costs.......
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Fred is driving for Chad & Jenn Clemens in 2007, Michael Carber's former car owners.
fredrahmer.com
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 13, 2007 at
02:35:01 AM
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Fred Rahmer is full of shit. Just as Terry McCarl was on his thoughts on 360's. McCarl was saying that as he is gearing up for King of the 360's down if Florida. A hypocrit is a hypocrit. Rahmer probably doesn't like 360's because they are on the way UP......while he himself and 410's are on the way DOWN. And as 410's decline over the next few years in Central PA (which might happen or might not.....who knows) he might actually have to take to the road where he takes a chance of not being so dominant and may even get the crap kicked out of him. Most of us all love the 360's. More cars, better racing, and all for half the price. Rahmer and McCrl can both blow their beloved hatred of 360's right out their ass!
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a
wouldchuck could chuck would
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January 13, 2007 at
05:34:17 AM
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Central PA already has plenty of (full-sized / "full framed" open cockpit racing on the table... 410s, 358s, Super Sportsman, & 305s. There's no need to add another (regular) division. The 410s are the "premier" division in the area, and while the car counts may not be at their best possible number, the numbers really aren't all that bad. Primarily, and for the most part, the 410s are what still fills the stands, and the other divisions on the card for a given evening are mostly a plus for the fans. There's already a solid and established "limited" division with the 358s, and there's plenty of them. Along with that are the highly competitive Super Sportsman. All these divisions offer more than enough racing for the owners, teams, crews, drivers, and fans (while keeping in mind the variation of their pocketbooks). The 410s still put on a good show and are still competitive enough for a good mixed-bag of driver name victories. The 358s are plentiful as are their driver names which are capable of winning on a given night. The Super Sportsman have been holding their own for many years in this region. There's just no need for another full-sized open cockpit division in this area. There are many fans who can afford three races a week, and there are many who can't, or may choose to prioritize their entertainment dollar with more diversity. But for the majority of the open cockpit fans who can only attend one or two races per week (for whatever reason), they're likely going to go see 410s on a Friday or Saturday where there are names that the fans are already familiar with and have been for years.
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January 13, 2007 at
07:11:18 AM
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OKCFan12 - Maybe you better re-read the article on McCarl...I think you might have misunderstood his remarks.
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January 13, 2007 at
07:39:54 AM
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I think Rahmer has a partial argument concerning the 358s anyway where Lincoln Speedway is concerned. The track is just small enough that motor isn't such an issue. With the 410s hardly getting full fields anymore (now even the #77 and Apple cars will be missing) they probably are about the same value as a 358 for prospective car owners. The 358s draw 40+ cars and have to run two B-Mains each night, seem to be involved in a lot more crashes, and only pay $1000 to win compared to the 410's $3000 to win. Plus they run second on the card to a half full grandstand.
I think Rahmer is also probably right concerning Susquehanna as well. Susky never seemed to get full 410 fields either and Fisher was paying $3500 to win and $325 to start. I do think the 360s with the large top wings (so the casual fan won’t be able to tell the difference) running on Sunday nights as the headline division with a spec head and narrow tire will probably be more profitable in the end however... if Fisher sticks it out... because truthfully it won’t take much to draw at least the same crowd as the 410s (which wasn’t too good) while still paying less purse.
I don’t think the same sentiment holds true for Williams Grove Speedway however even with all of its high paying races. I think it’s astronomical to field a front running car there and hopefully some sensible ideas like a tire rule could go a long way to rectifying the situation.
In the end, though, it was Dave Blaney’s words that were repeated to describe where the sport needs to go. "It doesn’t need to be 410 racing," he said. "It doesn’t need to be 360 racing. It needs to be Sprint Car racing."
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 13, 2007 at
08:11:05 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on January 13 2007 at 07:39:54 AM
I think Rahmer has a partial argument concerning the 358s anyway where Lincoln Speedway is concerned. The track is just small enough that motor isn't such an issue. With the 410s hardly getting full fields anymore (now even the #77 and Apple cars will be missing) they probably are about the same value as a 358 for prospective car owners. The 358s draw 40+ cars and have to run two B-Mains each night, seem to be involved in a lot more crashes, and only pay $1000 to win compared to the 410's $3000 to win. Plus they run second on the card to a half full grandstand.
I think Rahmer is also probably right concerning Susquehanna as well. Susky never seemed to get full 410 fields either and Fisher was paying $3500 to win and $325 to start. I do think the 360s with the large top wings (so the casual fan won’t be able to tell the difference) running on Sunday nights as the headline division with a spec head and narrow tire will probably be more profitable in the end however... if Fisher sticks it out... because truthfully it won’t take much to draw at least the same crowd as the 410s (which wasn’t too good) while still paying less purse.
I don’t think the same sentiment holds true for Williams Grove Speedway however even with all of its high paying races. I think it’s astronomical to field a front running car there and hopefully some sensible ideas like a tire rule could go a long way to rectifying the situation.
In the end, though, it was Dave Blaney’s words that were repeated to describe where the sport needs to go. "It doesn’t need to be 410 racing," he said. "It doesn’t need to be 360 racing. It needs to be Sprint Car racing."
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Cubic, I'm not too optimstic about Susky's chances of making their Sunday-night 360 program work this year. It is going to be hard enough to start a new division from scratch in the area, and Fisher has alienated so many teams and fans that many of them will never go back as long as he is promoting the track.
Susky is always going to be the odd man out is central PA; they are always going to have to run on the least desirable night (Thursday or Sunday) if they choose to run Sprint Cars. I can understand the fact that the 410 purse may not have worked at Susky, but it would have been smarter to go the Selinsgrove route and make the 358s the headliner.
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January 13, 2007 at
08:19:44 AM
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This message was edited on
January 13, 2007 at
08:43:31 AM by singlefile
Reply to:
Posted By: OKCFan12 on January 13 2007 at 02:35:01 AM
Fred Rahmer is full of shit. Just as Terry McCarl was on his thoughts on 360's. McCarl was saying that as he is gearing up for King of the 360's down if Florida. A hypocrit is a hypocrit. Rahmer probably doesn't like 360's because they are on the way UP......while he himself and 410's are on the way DOWN. And as 410's decline over the next few years in Central PA (which might happen or might not.....who knows) he might actually have to take to the road where he takes a chance of not being so dominant and may even get the crap kicked out of him. Most of us all love the 360's. More cars, better racing, and all for half the price. Rahmer and McCrl can both blow their beloved hatred of 360's right out their ass!
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Guess you have to love the 360s; the 410s in your area have died out. At least we still have a choice in PA. Rahmer's opinion on the 360/410 debate may be right or it may be wrong, but you really don't have a clue if you think his opinion is formed because he is worried about getting "the crap kicked out of him."
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January 13, 2007 at
08:27:10 AM
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I agree Sunday night ASCS 360 racing will be a very tough row to hoe, 358s would have been an easier sell. I think he's trying to make his own headline division that he can bring in the ASCS National Touring group in against a few times a year. I also agree that Fisher himself has hurt his chances some. 358s vs Trailways or even 410s (non-Grove regulars) on Friday nights always seemed like it might have had a faint chance as well to me.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 13, 2007 at
08:55:04 AM
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Living in Oklahoma sucks as far as 410 racing goes. The ASCS racing is great but the 410's rule. I wish we had a real promoter in OKC instead of people making a good living of the back gate. I would love to see Emmet Hahns 410 sprint bandits become bigger.
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January 13, 2007 at
10:02:00 AM
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Cubic $ you make some very good points. What RR tire is URC getting for $138. That is a better deal than most are getting.
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January 13, 2007 at
10:50:53 AM
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This message was edited on
January 13, 2007 at
10:55:35 AM by cubicdollars
Reply to:
Posted By: sprint19 on January 13 2007 at 10:02:00 AM
Cubic $ you make some very good points. What RR tire is URC getting for $138. That is a better deal than most are getting.
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URC TIRE RULE:
a) All cars shall be equipped with American Racer Tires on all four wheel positions. All cars shall display two American Racer decals ofcontrasting color: one on each side of the top wing (sideboards) (see sponsor requirement illustration).
b) All tires will be purchased from J & H Welding of Bechtelsville, PA. Call Joe Jordan of J & H Welding at (610) 754-6329. All tires must be URC branded tires. Temporary permit cars must start out with a URC branded right and left rear tire, and will have to be in full compliance of the URC tire rule by the third appearance.
c) Compounds permitted on right rear are: MC2 or Harder Compounds permitted on left rear are: SD33 or Harder Compounds permitted on front tires are: SOFT (SD44) Special Events only (pre-announced) SD35 Anyone using illegal tire compound will forfeit all monies and points earned for that event.
d) When special tire compounds are required and/or offered bythe URC tire supplier at a discount price, they will be permitted with the approval of the Managing Members and must be available to all competitors. Competitors will be notified in advance if this situation occurs.
Link to American Racer promotional article from their website... The Rich Get Richer And The Poor Get Children
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 13, 2007 at
11:16:13 AM
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Link to similar thread on Williams Grove website... http://www.williamsgrove.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7075
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 13, 2007 at
04:09:14 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: singlefile on January 13 2007 at 08:11:05 AM
Cubic, I'm not too optimstic about Susky's chances of making their Sunday-night 360 program work this year. It is going to be hard enough to start a new division from scratch in the area, and Fisher has alienated so many teams and fans that many of them will never go back as long as he is promoting the track.
Susky is always going to be the odd man out is central PA; they are always going to have to run on the least desirable night (Thursday or Sunday) if they choose to run Sprint Cars. I can understand the fact that the 410 purse may not have worked at Susky, but it would have been smarter to go the Selinsgrove route and make the 358s the headliner.
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...and there ya have it!
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January 13, 2007 at
04:10:43 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: singlefile on January 13 2007 at 08:19:44 AM
Guess you have to love the 360s; the 410s in your area have died out. At least we still have a choice in PA. Rahmer's opinion on the 360/410 debate may be right or it may be wrong, but you really don't have a clue if you think his opinion is formed because he is worried about getting "the crap kicked out of him."
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Ditto!
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January 14, 2007 at
05:14:31 AM
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granted......Rahmer getting the crap kicked out of him isn't a very likely scenario. I'm having thinker problems at the moment from all the fumes.lol j/k. But seriously there is still a whole country of sprint car racing outside of PA........PA can make 410's work......great for PA. But most of the country is much different. ASCS provides us like I said with great racing at a great price. In short I'm all for ASCS 360's and thankful for em. PA is a lot different than everywhere else. And yes when Tulsa Speedway was ran in the ground and Lanny Edwards had his fallin out with WoO that about did for 410 racing in this area. Screw 410's......I want to see wingless racing.
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a
wouldchuck could chuck would
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January 14, 2007 at
07:50:42 AM
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I stopped by the ASCS booth at the Motorsport show in Atlantic City to get a little info on their entry into the Central Pa scene this year. There was a car (Cody Darrah?) on display and that was it. No one manning the booth, no literature, no table, no schedules, no nothing. I know that Susky is pretty much regarded as a Mickey Mouse operation but I thought that ASCS was pretty good on the people side of the biz.
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January 14, 2007 at
02:09:13 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: OKCFan12 on January 14 2007 at 05:14:31 AM
granted......Rahmer getting the crap kicked out of him isn't a very likely scenario. I'm having thinker problems at the moment from all the fumes.lol j/k. But seriously there is still a whole country of sprint car racing outside of PA........PA can make 410's work......great for PA. But most of the country is much different. ASCS provides us like I said with great racing at a great price. In short I'm all for ASCS 360's and thankful for em. PA is a lot different than everywhere else. And yes when Tulsa Speedway was ran in the ground and Lanny Edwards had his fallin out with WoO that about did for 410 racing in this area. Screw 410's......I want to see wingless racing.
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Uh, you do realize that a lot of wingless racing is also 410 racing, right?
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January 14, 2007 at
03:33:45 PM
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This message was edited on
January 15, 2007 at
12:58:40 PM by BIGFISH
Reply to:
Posted By: singlefile on January 14 2007 at 02:09:13 PM
Uh, you do realize that a lot of wingless racing is also 410 racing, right?
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Ya think? I'm going to try and not step on to many toes here but I'm a lucky man here in A.Z,we have a fine traditional 360 division-ASCA. N.M. has NMMRA and Cal has SCRA and some others that can be used as a stepping stone to the traditional 410s if that's the goal. I used to love when USAC came to town and go up against the hot shoes from A.Z. N.M. California and other states.In my opinion the problem was they decided to stay! Traditional sprints are not wingless! Sprint cars with wings are modifieds. I like modified sprints once in a while and wish SCOA could work something out with Manzy to be able to run the big 1/2 mile. The only time we see those guys is with the outlaw show.
I remember back in the early eighty's,I was in Portland Org watching this kid named Mike Bliss coming up. In 1984,about the time he got in a sprinter for the first time, they were running a (outlaw) open comp late model Sunday afternoon show at Portland's then paved 1/2 mile for $3000 to win and it was like that all over the Pacific Northwest. Why is it still $3000 to win even at some of the premier tracks in such a big sprint car state like Pennsylvania? Somethings wrong with that picture.
Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.
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