Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Winged Monster Trucks!!! I gotta get me one o' them t-shirts.

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

Okay so I think I finally figured it out. By reading between the lines of all of the various messages here is my take on things.

DIRT Inc. is a secretly owned and funded(through privately held banks in South Africa) organization of NASCAR that is trying to destroy all Saturday night short track racing so they can install lights at all of the tracks Nascar runs making all of the races Fri/Sat night races during primetime, cornering the television market as well. Why would they do this you ask. 1. Nascar could not wrestle viewership away from the Sunday football crowd. 2. Steve Kinser refused to buy another Nascar license.

Seriousely, I hope they do not take away the very means of support necessary to keep the cars on the road all season long. I would think it would be a lot easier to sell a sanction fee with 20 name brand drivers than 10.

bingo...for several of the drivers, the merch. $ dwarfs the tow money.

it appears the only people who are silly enough to try something again is the attempt to take over the T-Shirt money by the santioning body.

looking at the recent 20% slide yesterday and another 12% today, they are not making any progress there either. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=DMSP.OB

i am curious - when Dirt uses the terms "platinum memeber and gold member", are they referencing the level of committment to the series, or the level of taxation?

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

...and there's several CA tracks that would realize dramatic benefits if rumored rides are kept home.

I'm not hatin' John, but I truly believe that had not a certain someone "cut and run", this season would have been an interesting one to watch, and may have made a "driver" based series a reality.

I'd love to believe that all was well, TJ/DIRT/WRG were in it for the greater good, cheaters never prosper...

Maybe I'm jaded and need a new pair of rose colored glasses, but my last 31 years in this sport has taught me a universal truth...if it quacks and waddles!

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

DIRT MOTOR SPORTS, I (OTC BB:DMSP.OB)

Last Trade: 0.30 Trade Time: 11:48AM ET Change: 0.10 (25.00%) Prev Close: 0.40 Open: 0.35 Bid: 0.30 x 5000 Ask: 0.31 x 5000 1y Target Est: N/A

Day's Range: 0.30 - 0.44 52wk Range: N/A Volume: 90,430 Avg Vol (3m): N/A Market Cap: 4.40M P/E (ttm): N/A EPS (ttm): -1.07 Div & Yield: N/A (N/A)

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

John - As a race fan, I really can't trust you to be unbiased due to your involvement with Dirt (your Dirtvision connection). You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'm sure that the Ben Geisler's of the world could care less what we think as long as he gets his $$$ every week. I just think to lump it all into "there's nothing better" is shortchanging the situation. My source tells me that they are asking for $8.00 per shirt for "handling" their sales. That's a bit overpriced. If the promoter's don't have room for the trailers, or the WoO want a cut, or it's a marketing "strategy", or it's just plain greed, the fact remains that they had three years of allowing them (I guess I can get a t-shirt trailer CHEAP now), and then the spin.

Faster; the only thing that quacks and waddles around here is you!! Your intense dislike for a certain driver who "RUINED SPRINT CAR RACING TWICE" is ridiculous. Your glasses surely aren't rose colored, unless that's the color of ignorance or blind hatred.

Now, I may not have been "involved in racing for 31 years", but I've been watching for 54 and "involved" for quite a few of those. I would say that my opinion is as valid as yours wouldn't you?

Every matter that comes up is either God's will or Steve Kinser's fault. Your rhetoric reminds me of the movie "MASH". Your name isn't Frank Burns is it??

I have strong feelings on this matter, but I'm waiting until I get more information before I decide one way or the other what action to take.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

where's hot lips?

infidel since 1970

What is Dirt Mortorsport trying to do now, I guess I haven't seen this so called e-mail. Are they trying to dip into the teams money now? If that is the case, I would drop Dirt Mortorsport like a rock and move on.

I saw her and Hawker...oops, Hawkeye behind the mess tent!

EPSG - you can focus all your hatred and vitriolic........God's will????  Where the hell did that come from? 

No arguement from me, and I've apologized face to face to those that had it coming (my apology that is), I can be negative at times.  Much of it is in jest, devil's advocacy...but rest assured, I only want the best for this sport as a whole and those precious commodities that make it great - the drivers!

Kinser didn't "ruin sprint car racing twice", but he sure f - ed up the most recent attempt at the establishment of a "driver based" series, and I don't mean any disrespect but, this is not based upon opinion (which by the way - yours is every bit as good, if not better, than mine) rather intimate knowledge.

Kinser was/is an incredible shoe, but he's also an incredible shit!  I wonder how FB's family feels about him now?

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

I still would like an answer to this question....If the World of Outlaws is so bad, if the organization is so against all that competitors and fans hold dear, then why have over twenty teams been out on the tour all year?

Anybody can start a series. Just don't forget that in order to race, you need track promoters to take an event date. If they didn't do it last year (or, if those tracks that did would have made money) with Kinser, Lasoski, TSR Racing and all the others, what makes anyone think it would be different now?

You all keep talking about drivers leaving the series. Here's a bit of economics to chew on...The WoO is paying tow money to twenty teams. Before this season, there were about 12-15 running (since WRG was purchased from Ted). Heck, Ted sometimes only had about eight fulltimers. Anyone want to take a guess who actually pays the increased cost of the tow money? Tracks do, through increased sanction fees. Everybody gripes about ticket prices. Guess why tracks have raised them? Secondly, due to more teams following the tour, the pass list the WoO requests tracks to honor for free and discounted passes in higher than ever. This is a major point in discussions between series and track. The costs get deferred to the track, which relays them on to you when you buy a ticket.

Therefore, I'll make a comment here that probably won't sit well with a lot of people. What benefit is there to having five, or eight, or even ten extra teams out there from what has been the historical norm? Not to be mean, but how many top fives have been collectively garnered this season by people out of the top fifteen in points? How many ticket buying fans get excited about any but the handfull of drivers who are nationally known or local heroes coming home to race a WoO event at there local track? And, if these guys depond on tow money  and merchandise sales to stay out on the tour, then there's a problem. This doesn't mean these guys aren't good drivers that have merit in the sport. But it probably means they'd be better off at local and regional tracks and series winning races. I'm sure it's a dream for guys to run with the Outlaws but we all have dreams. Sometimes, we just aren't good enough or the timing isn't right to be where we want to be. So, you go to plan B, or C, or D.

World Racing Group has to find a way to cut expenses or they won't be around in the long run. They MUST work toward profitability. They have to offer a decently-priced event package to tracks and still be able to pay the best purse structure in sprint car racing. Certainly, they need sales from merchandise, too. How do you think Ted kept the series going as long as he did? It is also true that not every track has room for or wants drivers' merchandise trailers.

It's no secret that in some places that run a weekly sprint car show, car counts have been down, not only during local shows but also when the WoO is in the area, because there are guys who could be winning races at that level who have cast their lot with the WoO. Just for example, a guy like Justin Henderson could have competed for track championships at Knoxville and Husets this year and won quite a few local races while still hitting WoO and special events in the upper midwest to gain valuable experience. Surely, the experience he gained by racing with the best every night has been a good thing, but at what expense?

I'll tell you what...Go ask your local track promoter if he wants to see the World of Outlaws not be able to make it. Find out what his costs are and how he makes his money at Outlaw events. Ask that promoter what his issues are in the business. I do it nearly every day/week and let me tell you, it's an eye-opener.

You can call me biased in favor of the World Racing Group/WoO if you want. You would be right, too. I want Tom Deery and Ben Geisler and the rest of their people and drivers, et, al. to be around and do well. Why? Because it's the main game in town...maybe the only game. If they fail, it will set the sport back and it won't be easy to recover. Just remember, if series and tracks aren't successful, racers aren't going to race for the kind of purse structure they need to stay even reasonably, financially viable.It's already pretty hard to do that so why make it worse?

ROTFLMAO!! How can I even reply to that??

Please fill us in on all of the "inside info". I'm really curious.

Perhaps I'm fuzzy on the whole "SK ruined the NST deal". From what I understand, that's not quite the way it went down.

Seriously, I want to know your side of it. I admit, I haven't watched HH much lately. Too many pop-ups and I've had to clean my HD more than once. Then I quit visiting here and the problems stopped. Finally got a really good spyware/virus blocker and haven't had trouble since.

Anyway, I apologize if there's some inside joke I've missed. As I said, it's been quite awhile. The only reason I actually started coming back was because of Opp's dad.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Just a footnote Leonard Maltin, your self-contradictory, circular logic is much reminiscint of a novel/movie as well...Joseph Heller's Catch-22.

Exactly how devasting are your taken actions going to be after you receive more information on the subject.  It's not a new topic, a solution was proposed previously (a huge proponent of said solution was SK - my opinion of him was quite different then [do your f - ing homework Cuz!]), and the course was not stayed.  Back to square one...

What are you going to do...I got it, run down to the harbor and throw all the King's tea into the bay?

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

Actually John, I know of 1 racetrack owner/promoter who doesn't care if WoO lives or dies. The last we spoke of it he made it quite clear that WoO won't be back. Now, he may have changed his mind about this in the interim, but I don't see it happening. His co-promoter for the last show wasn't overly enthusiastic about the results either, and we had a near-record crowd in the stands for it.

You have several good points, but just proclaiming WRG the lesser of 2 evils isn't a great argument. Yes, WoO has more and larger purses than any other series. Yes, they give a platform for the drivers (some of them anyway) to make a good living. But, does that make them the most viable option?

I think the greatest fear that most of us fans have (perhaps some or a lot of the drivers also, but no factual evidence on that) is that WRG is a huge facade. Are they really just the Wizard of Oz? A huge display of smoke, fire pots and fake lightning? The only news that most of us hear is the poor financial standings (supposed or real) and that they're borrowing more money to pay off current and future debts. While they do from time to time put out "announcements" about this, that and the other, for the most part it seems to the layman to be just fluff.

I may be way off base with this, but from talks I've had with fans and drivers there's quite the distrust of WRG and everyone in their organization with a VERY few exceptions. Now we have one of the most recognizable names in the WoO has come out vehemently decrying a couple of their new policies. And what answer from WRG? A form e-mail sent out to the fans who've written in telling the "powers that be" of their displeasure. That doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy; anyone else?

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

You may wish to read my reply to you (which obviously got crossed and we were simultaneously posting). To quote you: "do your f-ing homework Cuz!".

By the way, wasn't it you calling for something to do with a king and a harbor??

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Business isn't "warm and fuzzy".

Why did the promoter you referenced not make any money even though he had an exceptional crowd? May it have been due to reasons I stated above?

Has WRG/WoO ever failed to pay the entire purse at a sanctioned event? Ever failed to deliver on point funds or tow money?

The things you are stating are subjective. The "one of the most recognized names in WoO" is currently eleventh in series point standings. I don't know if he's selling that many tickets around the country or not. But, that's besides the point. Whether you or a majority of people who post on here "trust" the managrs of the series doesn't matter. How many drivers have ever had complete "trust" in any sanctioning body or track to work in their best interests or whatever. Fans are buying tickets, as long as events are promoted and rain isn't likely. When a fan buys a ticket is he concerned about trusting the series or the track? No, not likely. That fan just wants to be entertained and get his money's worth. Drivers and teams trusting the people in the series? As long as the purse, tow money and points fund is paid, they'll be there. History tells us that. How many drivers/car owners are ever happy about series/track management? I don't care whether it's the World of Outlaws, All Stars, Knoxville, Williams Grove or whatever, there's always some kind of conflict or question about procedure that someone wants changed. It's natural.

My feeling about the drivers merchandise trailers is that it's something people will get over. There are more important things to work on in the sport.

No, business isn't "warm and fuzzy"; but neither should it be constant suspicion and distrust. I'm talking the fans, who are the ones who buy the tickets.

I would say that the co-promoters didn't make money because of the exhorbitant outlay prior to opening the doors and just the general CODB for such a show. Don't quote me, because I don't know for sure. WoO shows haven't made money there for the past 3 years. Even if you blame last year on the NST, that leaves 2 years. The track did make money this last year from what I've been told, no thanks to that 1 show. The days when a track could make it's season from 1 or 2 WoO shows are sadly long gone.

As for drivers having complete trust in any sanctioning body or track, I'd say that most likely the number would approach fairly close to zero.

Yes, all moneys are being paid; but from where?? Phantom "investors" who are funding this year's and next year's obligations? Okay. And now WRG tells us that after next year everything will be lollipops and roses all around. Since they're borrowing from Peter to pay Paul right now, next year must be gonna be a humdinger!!!!

My feeling about the driver's merchandise trailers is that it is just 1 more thing, 1 more straw on the proverbial camel's back. But, I agree that there are more important things to worry about in our sport.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

OK, so the promoter had a "near record" crowd. Costs kept them from making a profit (or at least as much as they wanted). The things I mentioned might play into that more than a little, you think?

It seems to me that tow money, free & discounted tickets, ect. for a larger amount of teams on tour can be part of the problem. Since I don't know the track or how it was promoted or how big a "near record" at that facility is, I really don't know how to totally respond to your example.

Yes, the days of relatively cheap shows and huge crowds are probably gone, but where are you going to place the blame? At Ben Geisler and Tom Deery's feet? This isn't a new problem. The problem with your example not making money had nothing to do with who is funding WRG, or whether fans and competitors trust these people. I've never known anyone who decided to buy a ticket based on where the series got it's money.

Hey, why not just have WRG go away, then let the tracks put a series together? I bet the first thing they'd slash would be the purse and point fund. I bet everybody could kiss tow money away, too. It's not like they haven't thought about doing that (starting a series) in the past.

Just what does everyone want? You don't like the management at WRG, you didn't like Ted Johnson, you don't like Donny Schatz, Steve Kinser or whatever driver driver didn't say the right thing or sign your shirt, prices are too high, there isn't any passing, the local tracks don't treat you right, the All Stars have gone downhill, whatever else you can think of. Now, you want to make an issue out of merchandise trailers. Drivers want to be in on management decision of a series or track, want more money, lowere costs and none of it ever ends.

Bottom line is this whether anybody likes it or not...it's about making money. When the opportunity to make money no longer exists, things will change or just go away.

The track owners and/or promoters of the event should determine whether they can or can't have a souvenier trailer for each individual team, combo of teams or "gasp" even the WoO trailer.  For the WoO to preach from the mountaintop that they want $8.00 per shirt...(no misprint people $8.00 per shirt), is utterly ridiculous.  Do I think that as a paying fan I should have a voice, absolutely.  It may not be the loudest voice, but I actually contribute to the event, and I would think without paying fans or racers the show just couldn't go on no matter how many writers or radio personalities are in attendance.  I am sure that if you went to work and the boss or better yet management said to you the same thing your shoveling you would get pissed.  Maybe something along the lines of "we have a vision to make the best widgets in the nation, and to do this we need to charge you 20% more on your health insurance, cut your wages and reduce your vacation.  Since we're the only widget show in town, shut up and get back to work and be part of the team...team widget.

Look...I don't know you from Adam, and I'm sure if we met away from this retarded message board, we'd share many of the same views on a multitude of topics...but I am a Yankees fan so gimme a break.

Nothing I've either said, nor implied about the King (or his tea...the SK/King inference had no pun intended...poor choice of metaphors on my part) and his affect/effect on the demise of the NST comes from gossip, heresay, this forum...

It does come from a phone call from counsel announcing a reversal in one's direction, whilst in the midst of another phone call with the very "gentleman" denying the reversal that I just received forewarning of...

There's no "inside joke"....  You, and those that think they know can spew what you will about a myriad of topics...and in most cases I'll be happy to fan the flames in typical asshole fashion.  This topic however, hits close to home, left several poorly leveraged, and tarnishes the memory of a man I loved and called "friend".

I have an engagement in front of members of the North Platte NRD next month and would welcome a meeting...I never miss a chance to stop at Whiskey Creek. 

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi