Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I'm curious what is happening and how cost-containment is taking place as the 305 division seems to be growning across the country.  I know there is the RaceSaver program, how is that working? 

So, if you get the chance I'd like to know how/what is being done to keep an entry-level class at the entry-level price?

Steve,

It seems to appear that there may need to be some some better cost containment and enforcement in the built engine arena.

Since I retired from Eldora Speedway and moving to Indy, Oshweken Speedway, myself and others have been working on a  602 crate engine program that will be a true entry level sprint car.

I won't go into it here but if you want to contact me we can discuss it.

Larry Kemp 317-416-6854

360's engines have got out of hand and a lot of small time racers can not afford to compete anymore so the 305's are gaining ground. ASCS has caused this problem in my opinion. I would rather see 360's made more afforable (steel heads,flat top pistons, compression rule,hard tires, smaller wings) rather than 305's. You could probably apply the same ideas from the Racesaver 305 to a 360 and have the same motor cost. I'm afraid the 305's cost will be out of control in 5 years. Some non Racesaver 305's already cost as much as a average 360.   

There is no cost containment. "Cheaper" classes don't make people that have more money spend less money, they only make less wealthy people spend all their money too. Plus, entry-level classes are usually just excuses for promoters to pay lower purses and back gate promote. It also waters down the overall quality of the product.  Just my opinion of course.

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http://alternative410motor.com/

will people wake up before a 305 costs as much as a year old 410?

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

Mr. Post;

Please check your e-mail (the e-mail most likely went to your spam file).

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

And just as long as you actually tech the Racesaver class religiously and correctly, it should be cost effective.

Can you spend $25,000 for a Racesaver legal engine, of course!! Will it help you if it truly is Racesaver legal, not so much. You may gain 50'ish HP, but with the tire and other restrictions, it's not all that beneficial.

As for cutting the purses, Eagle Raceway pays out the same amount total as when we ran the 360's. The money is spread out more evenly throughout the field is all.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

It depends on what you are factoring into the "cost" of the engine.  If you are just looking at total cost, they will never be "cheap" due to the labor bill at the engine builder.  When your $17K engine has a labor bill of $7500, then your engine really only cost $9500.  You just paid someone $7500 to bolt it together....but some people aren't able to build it themselves, so the question is, how do you control labor cost?

Even still, show me a LEGAL race WINNING $17K ASCS motor....

305's might not be your definition of "cheap", but compared to the available alternatives (ASCS and 410), they are pretty cheap...

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!   The first sentence says it all.   There isn't cost containment, there never has been and there never will be.    I watched the Dave Despain show a week or so ago and saw his interview with Emmett Hahn, who readily admits that the cost of an ASCS engine has tripled since the series first started.  Doesn't sound like cost containment to me.    The 305s will spiral out of control too, it's called racing...

I agree, there is always a way to spend $ in racing. I think the 305 class is awesome for the drivers in Knoxville because it is cheaper than running a 360 and 410 and still exciting for fans to watch. Im sure those guys still spend a lot more than any of us figure though. Fans are just people that want to race but dont have the guts to spend life savings on racing, I'm one of these people lol.

"Cost Containment" is just that! All the parts for a NEW 305 are available for around $8000. Block prep, etc. is where the containment can't be controlled. We have motors available for $7000.00 yet some are paying $18 to $20,000 for them out of state! Makes no sence to me! I think it is a very good class and will cintinuue to grow in the Midwest.

Sprints rule

Cost vs Rules are a double edged sword.

The more open the rules, the more the cost.  The same can be said with the tighter the rules, the more the cost.  The problem I can see with the RaceSaver deal is the same thing that happend to ASCS.  When ASCS was "affordable", everyone was claiming you could only get xx number of HP from an engine and everything over that is in no way legal.  Well look where we are, they are legal, they're making 700hp and the costs are steadily rising.  The same issue with the 305's.  Down here, the 305's are about 10 years old.  When they first started, if you made 390-400hp on the chassis dyno, you were doing something.  Now, more money is being spent, more research is leading to more HP which costs money.  We're over 460hp on the chassis dyno now.  And I don't care what tire/wing package you're on, a sprint car can hook up 460hp.  The tire doesn't come into play until you surpass the amount of HP the tire is capable of planting and the 305's aren't there.  If the tire were the trick, then allow the ASCS cars to run with the 305's, afterall, the tire should even them out right?

My thoughts on the subject at hand.....

www.racesuppliers.com
[email protected]
888-571-4157

As somebody who has run the RaceSaver division, I can tell you the main thing that helps contain some of the cost has been the sustainability of the engines.  Reguardless of what people are spending, you are getting on average 40-50 races out of an engine before any rebuilds.  Usually then it is just the valve springs.  We are running at Port Royal, Williams Grove, Selinsgrove and turning these engines hard and seeing little wear on them.  The maintenance is the key, as long as you are changing your oil and checking your spring tensions along with fueling the engine properly, they are very hard to hurt. 

One thing that has happened though is the advent of the 305 specific parts due to the increase in demand, making the parts makers see the value of selling "speed".  It happens all the time in every race division.  

What people need to realize is that this was NOT created to be a stepping stone division into 410's or 360's.  It was created to give those the opportunity to race and have fun, without having to mortgage the house 3-4 times.

The crapper is that traction costs money. Traction is the root of all evil regarding the cost of racing. Even those stock framed modifieds that run on a skinny hard tire have found a way to plant the car and let their big motors eat. Everything about a sprintcar was designed to allow a guy to hook up an 850HP motor. The chassis, the tires, the shocks, the wings...everything was designed to put 800 horses to the ground on average track conditions. Back in the days of parts store shocks and grooved drag slicks/firestone double diamonds a guy to go to the chevy dealer, purchase a new engine, put his mag and injectors on it and race it competitively all year long. 

Now you take a motor that has half that horsepower and provide it with all the traction available in todays cars and a weaker motor will really struggle. Being down 50 HP against a field of cars with over 800HP is bad enough....if you are down 50 against a field of cars with 450HP you will wish you had done something else with your money.

Yes a good setup can make up for the gap....yes a good driver can make up for the gap. But that is assuming all the guys with lots of money suck at driving and setting up their cars...and that is not always the case.

I do think the racesaver package is the best thing going right now for cost to compete...unless we can include open engine nonwing racing on small tracks in the discussion. But i'm afraid we aren't far from seeing the "specialty parts" screwing up what they have going. I wish a $700 used hilborn injector was just as good as the new 305 specific, $3500 units but I bet it isn't. I wish a used $300 Vertex mag was just as fast as the trickest new MSD units that sell for nearly 2 grand...but again I bet it isn't. I wish the guy who is capable of building his own motor had the ability to do tons of dyno testing and part swapping to be on even footing with the guys building $20,000 racesaver engines. New Dart blocks, new Hilborn or Engler 305 special injection, hot ignitions etc are going to drive the price of a racesaver motor to darn near identical to an ASCS motor. The one redeeming quality is the longevity....but just like the ASCS motors, eventiually somebody isa going to figure out how to make them build more power upwards of 9000 RPM and then the rebuilds every 8-10 nights are going to be the norm.

And don't tell me crate motors are the answer.... my out of the box GM crate motor won't come close to the balanced, tuned and toleranced $10,000 crate class legal motors that come from the certified rebuilders.

Eliminate traction or watch this deal go down the exact same path every other type of racecar has gone down

Loose is when you hit the wall with the rear of the
car, tight is when you hit the wall with the front of
the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and
torque is how far you move the wall.

I think any efforts to control how much something costs is a waste of time.   A guy can spend a billion dollars trying to win the IMCA Modified Nationals trophy if he really wants to.  

Focus on what advantage spending piles of cash gives you.   The most expensive motor in the world can get beat by a worn out Chevy straight 6 if you can't put the power to the ground. 

exactly, some people never seem to grip this observation or deny its fact, the ASCS 360 has gotten out of hand, i remember years back a build for a ASCS mill in Sc&M , or was it Open Wheel back then? anyhow, that was suppose to be a typical and competitive 360, the changes and innovations ive heard over the years are begining to trickle down from 410 stuff, off the shelf pieces are machined into exotic items , I just took the bull by the horns and went 410, sure the costs are astronomical, without any children in my life im able to afford it on a very mild season, but, look at the payout of 360's its ridiculous...  really? , who can afford to dump that kinda dough into a trophy class, far from a trophy class i dont understand the 360's strong exhistance, that being said, a little birdy told me the efforts of ASCS going back to gasketed Motors?? intresting? have you priced a set of ASCS heads lately.. proubly just another change that will bandaid one area and start the bleeding in another.. anyway   gonna play regardless..

Cost will never be controlled on its own so long as the class continues to grow.

MOTOR CLAIM RULE.......................the only way to control these 'budget' classes.

Set the dollar amount you want to hold them to--anyone in the A-main on any night, can claim the motor of anyone else in the A main on any night-for that pre-determined amount. 

I have seen this rule in action.  It was in place at a local speedway for years.  Never got used until a couple of guys started taking advantage of the Pro-Stock class.  The rule was so old that I think the claim was only set at $1000.  Someone had enough of them dominating with $20,000 engines and claimed them one night.  That was the end of those two showing up at that track running that class.  Case closed--Pro-Stock class resumed as intended. 

i remember looking at gaerte site about an  ascs 360 motor being around 19 to 23 thousand maybe around 2006or 2007, and when ascs went truly national with higher payouts motor cost rose quickly.  did you guys running 360s also see the jump in price about this time or was cost already rising

I helped found a 305 sprint based association here in the Memphis, TN area. 305 sprint racing has been going on here since 2004. Small wings, no wings, to reg 25 sq ft wings (now)....(by the way, wingless was by FAR my favorite variation of this class)....Running with out the wings, HELPED to level the power portion of this argument.

We are not RaceSaver sanctioned and have our own engine rules, however, we do allow the RaceSaver cars to come compete wtih us, and they've done very well. (Our engine package and the RaceSaver engine package are very similar.) Can you spend $18-20k on a new RaceSaver type engine? Sure.... Can you build a very competitive engine sourcing good, used parts (i.e. heads, injectors, mag, etc) substantially cheaper? Sure. Most of our racers in this area, are buying used set of 2 3/16" injectors, adding a set of #10 nozzles and a smaller pump, atop a set of cast iron 200cc runner heads, bolted on a .030-.060" over 305 block filled with an Eagle rotating assembly, a Melling Select oil pump, and going racing.  In all hoensty, it doesn't get a whole lot cheaper than this route.

Now....all of that being said. Here's another 'cost-fighting' alternative (MY opinion only) - You know all of the engines you see sitting in someone's shop, pushed back under the workbench, with a blanket thrown over them, collecting dust? Most are sitting there because they were build around a set of rules, that eventually got modified, making the engine obsolete, or no longer competitve. We all know engines sitting around in shops like this.....! How about this-? Take and make a 'run whatchu brung" sprint class....WINGLESS....But, with these few simple rules: 2 3/16" MAX dia injectors, small block engine config, a HARD RR tire rule (say a min of a 50 on the duromter) AND....as you roll out on the track, an official sets the RR tire pressure at 15-20 lbs. - ? This would allow many people the opportunity to return to the track with motors that otherwise aren't any good to them, and won't sell for much (again because they've been obsoleted), hard tires would last much longer than the currently available gumballs, and setting the RR air pressure way up, will prevent getting the car rolling over onto the RR exceptionally hard. Of course, people would actually have to learn to DRIVE the car again, but hey....everything has a drawback, right?

 Good thread and responses.  Finally a decent conversation with no yelling and name calling.