HoseHeads.com | HoseHeads Classifieds | Racer's Auction
Home | Register | Contact | Verify Email | FAQ |
Blogs | Photo Gallery | Press Release | Results | HoseheadsClassifieds.com


Welcome Guest. Already registered? Please Login

 

Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead


Records per page
 
Topic: Method For Calculating A Winged 410 National Champion Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 3   of  42 replies
kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 09, 2018 at 12:03:09 PM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply

Let me know what you think of this approach ... https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/ ... I won't get offended if you don't like it. I plan on updating the standings at least once a week. Think of the standings as a "College Basketball RPI" for 410 Winged Touring Sprint Car Series.

Thanks,

Kevin


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/


egras
April 09, 2018 at 12:37:21 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1958
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: kevintoribert on April 09 2018 at 12:03:09 PM

Let me know what you think of this approach ... https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/ ... I won't get offended if you don't like it. I plan on updating the standings at least once a week. Think of the standings as a "College Basketball RPI" for 410 Winged Touring Sprint Car Series.

Thanks,

Kevin



Looks okay for now.  It's obviously going to change in a big hurry, but I guess it is a reflection of what you see to date.  Many of the heavy hitters will shake their way to the top as a bigger sample size plays out.  For example, David Gravel is who David Gravel is.  He's not going to go winless for much longer. 



revjimk
April 09, 2018 at 02:24:34 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4076
Reply

Interesting idea, but it looks like an Allstar win gets as much points as a WoO win? That would skew the accuracy, don't you think?

I don't know how you could compensate for that....



HatCreek66
April 09, 2018 at 02:39:07 PM
Joined: 08/21/2011
Posts: 31
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: kevintoribert on April 09 2018 at 12:03:09 PM

Let me know what you think of this approach ... https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/ ... I won't get offended if you don't like it. I plan on updating the standings at least once a week. Think of the standings as a "College Basketball RPI" for 410 Winged Touring Sprint Car Series.

Thanks,

Kevin



Looks great for a "Traveling" series. Not sure I agree with the criteria. The Weekly schedule in PA starts in Feburary and runs to November. Basically 3 tracks....The Grove on Fridays, then the field splits between Lincoln and Port Royal for Saturday. For full time teams, that run twice a week, and sometimes 3 times a week, that is 60+ races for the full time teams, and you add in the travel to Florida, Speedweeks (Danny Dietrich does Ohio Speedweek too.), Kings Royal, and Knoxville. could be over a 100 races if they chase off weeks. So that all will not think I am a "homer" on this, I would equally say a track such as Knoxville, Jackson(**not sure about thier schedule) or others that run a full 410 schedule, weekly, should also be included. By the same token, some teams from Knoxville come to the grove for the Nationals, and also Speedweeks Florida, etc. I think that would be only fair for all full time teams to be considered. Definition of Full Time would be they run for point at a track or series. If not then, you are saying that the 410 National Champ can onlt come from an "labeled" series. Just my humble opinion



sprintfanatic
April 09, 2018 at 03:45:06 PM
Joined: 12/06/2004
Posts: 608
Reply

Extremely flawed because all 410 tracks are not included.  You should not penalize people because of where they chose to run.  In addition, points need to be deducted for any driver that runs a 360 or 305 race because they are cheapening the value of the sport.



Murphy
April 09, 2018 at 04:42:52 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1001
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: sprintfanatic on April 09 2018 at 03:45:06 PM

Extremely flawed because all 410 tracks are not included.  You should not penalize people because of where they chose to run.  In addition, points need to be deducted for any driver that runs a 360 or 305 race because they are cheapening the value of the sport.



     That made me laugh. What's the plan if a sprint driver hops in a racer with fenders?



revjimk
April 09, 2018 at 05:54:02 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4076
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: sprintfanatic on April 09 2018 at 03:45:06 PM

Extremely flawed because all 410 tracks are not included.  You should not penalize people because of where they chose to run.  In addition, points need to be deducted for any driver that runs a 360 or 305 race because they are cheapening the value of the sport.



 "points need to be deducted for any driver that runs a 360 or 305 race because they are cheapening the value of the sport."

Ouch.... I hope you're being sarcastic



JonR
April 09, 2018 at 08:43:23 PM
Joined: 05/28/2008
Posts: 642
Reply

I thought it was the person who won the WOO championship.  



blazer00
April 09, 2018 at 09:21:34 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2147
Reply
This message was edited on April 09, 2018 at 09:22:15 PM by blazer00
Reply to:
Posted By: JonR on April 09 2018 at 08:43:23 PM

I thought it was the person who won the WOO championship.  



No doubt! The only position(s) that could be considered open would be from runner up on back.......and in my opinion, no "homie" would crack the top five, unless there was a non Outlaw that won one of the major events as a traveler. A Posse member for example winning the WG Open would not be enough on it's own to promote a driver to the status of consideration. If that same Posse driver finished podium at the Nationals, and fared well at the Kings Royal, to go with that WG Open win, then yes....that's a hell of a feat as a traveler. He would merit a lot of consideration. Same as if a Jackson Motorplex driver or Knoxville driver won the Jackson Nationals and had podium at the Kings Royal. Throw in a top ten at the Nationals in addition to that, and that would merit consideration for the Midwest driver, but still not enough to dethrone the WoO season champion. I do think a prominant showing with at least some form of extended travel needs to be considered. A Local winning even 20 local features isn't enough regardless of where that's accomplished. Again....imo. I really don't see anybody outside the top four or five WoO drivers posing a serious threat toward being named a National Champion, regardless, but that's just me.



alum.427
April 09, 2018 at 09:42:01 PM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 525
Reply

 Most every major race is WoO sanctioned. So you can just follow there points and crown the same driver.  Yea, I don't really get what your trying to do. So if a central pa driver or knoxville or west coast driver has a banner year but doesn't travel, your going to penalize him for it ? All your going to do is have people bitchen week to week. 



kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 10, 2018 at 10:01:22 AM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: alum.427 on April 09 2018 at 09:42:01 PM

 Most every major race is WoO sanctioned. So you can just follow there points and crown the same driver.  Yea, I don't really get what your trying to do. So if a central pa driver or knoxville or west coast driver has a banner year but doesn't travel, your going to penalize him for it ? All your going to do is have people bitchen week to week. 



I'm using a ton of math behind the scenes to determine the rankings. If an All Star won a WoO race (Aaron Reutzel) and did not travel with the WoO, and that driver won a ton of All Star races, then that driver (because he or she is really talented) is going to be compared favorably to a WoO driver because when he ran with the WoO he beat all of the WoO drivers).

Here is a simple example of what happens: https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/p/what-is-national-sprint-car-championship.html

Beacuse of the way the math is determined, if Bill Balog won a WoO race at Beaver Dam and Wilmot and finished 5th at the Knoxville Nationals, his "KPI" would be very similar to Donny Schatz even though he didn't travel with the WoO ... because on the dates when he raced against Donny Schatz his average finish would be (1 + 1 + 5)/3 = 2.333, better than almost all of the WoO drivers.

A PA driver would race three times against the All Stars and three times against the WoO drivers and if she/he performed well, she/he could win the title in my framework, because in the six races she/he ran against the two touring series she/he outperformed those in the touring series.

The points help rank drivers ... and then I am comparing the relative strength of each driver against each other when they races together ... even if it is only 2-3 times for the whole year. As a result, you get a ranking. 

Notice that Chad Kemenah is currently third in the standings ... because of what he did in Florida, he gets a high ranking even though he does not travel with the WoO.


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/

racefanigan
April 10, 2018 at 10:23:28 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 147
Reply

Forgive me as I have not paid much attention, but is this all based off of the WoO or Schatz? My question is, What is someone like Jason Meyers, came in and swept the weekend at Vegas (hypothetically) and never ran another race the rest of the year, does that mean because he won the 2 races he ran he should rank higher than Donny because his average finish is higher, even though Donny ran 90 races and Meyers ran 2? I think you should be rewarded for running more. To my knowledge (As I said, I haven't paid attention much to him) But I do not believe kemenah has ran much since florida, if he has maybe a couple shows. why should he be ranked higher than others who have raced nearly twice the shows? I guess my point being, in Meyers' hypothetical situation, him winning 2 races in 2 starts, should not rank him higher than Donny if he say gets 20 wins, just because Jason's average finish is 1 and Donnys is 4. 

Maybe you are already taking that into consideration, this is just what I think about it. I feel like the power rankings system is a pretty well thought out system as well, even though I didn't agree a couple years back with Larson being in the top 10 having only ran 5 or 6 winged races, and I am one of the biggest Larson fans there is!



kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 10, 2018 at 10:41:54 AM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on April 10 2018 at 10:23:28 AM

Forgive me as I have not paid much attention, but is this all based off of the WoO or Schatz? My question is, What is someone like Jason Meyers, came in and swept the weekend at Vegas (hypothetically) and never ran another race the rest of the year, does that mean because he won the 2 races he ran he should rank higher than Donny because his average finish is higher, even though Donny ran 90 races and Meyers ran 2? I think you should be rewarded for running more. To my knowledge (As I said, I haven't paid attention much to him) But I do not believe kemenah has ran much since florida, if he has maybe a couple shows. why should he be ranked higher than others who have raced nearly twice the shows? I guess my point being, in Meyers' hypothetical situation, him winning 2 races in 2 starts, should not rank him higher than Donny if he say gets 20 wins, just because Jason's average finish is 1 and Donnys is 4. 

Maybe you are already taking that into consideration, this is just what I think about it. I feel like the power rankings system is a pretty well thought out system as well, even though I didn't agree a couple years back with Larson being in the top 10 having only ran 5 or 6 winged races, and I am one of the biggest Larson fans there is!



Good comment - smart!!

Yes, as the season progresses, there will be a "minimum races" level that a driver must achieve (likely to be 12 +/- races a year across all traveling series and/or Knoxville and/or PA Speedweek).


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/

racefanigan
April 10, 2018 at 10:49:25 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 147
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: kevintoribert on April 10 2018 at 10:41:54 AM

Good comment - smart!!

Yes, as the season progresses, there will be a "minimum races" level that a driver must achieve (likely to be 12 +/- races a year across all traveling series and/or Knoxville and/or PA Speedweek).



I just read the mothod on your website, it seems pretty well thought out. I for one do like when people do things like this, and I also realize there there will not be one fool proof method to determine an overall champion in sprint cars, we will have to give and take a little bit. If this were the case, all of 410 racing would need to be under a single sanction, such as NCAA is. 

I hope everything goes smoothly for ya! Its too bad that the WRG has the rules in place that they do, it would be cool to get some sponsors rounded up to have a Mini Series of sorts, such as WoO vs. ASCOC, on off weekends. WoO guys come in to an all star show, and all star guys come into a WoO show, maybe a 4 or 5 race deal throughout the year for a point fund. Hell, now that I think about it, I wish local racetracks did that, lol!



GTigers55
April 10, 2018 at 10:52:41 AM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 385
Reply

I did something last year for myself that was just an Ohio driver points basically. Top 10 at any Ohio race got points. Points were 10, 9, 8 and so on. Cole Duncan beat out Shaffer by one or two points.

my one recommendation would be to include all 410 races, but that is A LOT for one person to do. I know it’s a bear just doing all Ohio races I wouldn’t even want to think about all of it. However, a reasonable suggestion would be to include all the regional or local series. FAST, OVSCA, OSCS, BOSS Winged, IRA, MOWA, NOSA, KWS/NARC, and all like series. I can help out with the Ohio series if needed. I keep track of all the Ohio based stuff.



kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 10, 2018 at 10:54:34 AM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: HatCreek66 on April 09 2018 at 02:39:07 PM

Looks great for a "Traveling" series. Not sure I agree with the criteria. The Weekly schedule in PA starts in Feburary and runs to November. Basically 3 tracks....The Grove on Fridays, then the field splits between Lincoln and Port Royal for Saturday. For full time teams, that run twice a week, and sometimes 3 times a week, that is 60+ races for the full time teams, and you add in the travel to Florida, Speedweeks (Danny Dietrich does Ohio Speedweek too.), Kings Royal, and Knoxville. could be over a 100 races if they chase off weeks. So that all will not think I am a "homer" on this, I would equally say a track such as Knoxville, Jackson(**not sure about thier schedule) or others that run a full 410 schedule, weekly, should also be included. By the same token, some teams from Knoxville come to the grove for the Nationals, and also Speedweeks Florida, etc. I think that would be only fair for all full time teams to be considered. Definition of Full Time would be they run for point at a track or series. If not then, you are saying that the 410 National Champ can onlt come from an "labeled" series. Just my humble opinion



Good questions!!

I'll consider how to deal with your issues, thanks for the feedback.


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/

kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 10, 2018 at 10:55:03 AM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: sprintfanatic on April 09 2018 at 03:45:06 PM

Extremely flawed because all 410 tracks are not included.  You should not penalize people because of where they chose to run.  In addition, points need to be deducted for any driver that runs a 360 or 305 race because they are cheapening the value of the sport.



What tracks would you like to see included? I'll consider adding them ...


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/

kevintoribert
MyWebsite
April 10, 2018 at 11:07:26 AM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 14
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: GTigers55 on April 10 2018 at 10:52:41 AM

I did something last year for myself that was just an Ohio driver points basically. Top 10 at any Ohio race got points. Points were 10, 9, 8 and so on. Cole Duncan beat out Shaffer by one or two points.

my one recommendation would be to include all 410 races, but that is A LOT for one person to do. I know it’s a bear just doing all Ohio races I wouldn’t even want to think about all of it. However, a reasonable suggestion would be to include all the regional or local series. FAST, OVSCA, OSCS, BOSS Winged, IRA, MOWA, NOSA, KWS/NARC, and all like series. I can help out with the Ohio series if needed. I keep track of all the Ohio based stuff.



Interesting!

Part of the reason for paring things down was the amount of work required ... though I am streamlining the process each day and can retroactively add a series. I'll look into what you outlined, thanks!


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/

StanM
MyResults MyPressRelease
April 10, 2018 at 12:18:25 PM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 4169
Reply

Thanks for the effort but it doesn't take a formula to know that Schatz is still the man everyone else is chasing in 2018.  


Stan Meissner

Murphy
April 10, 2018 at 12:54:46 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1001
Reply

     There's too much apples and oranges to be comparing here that it's hard to make it seem like a fair comparison. Maybe what's needed is something like a super bowl of sprint car racing to decide who is the best racer? I could forsee having a big race to determine who is on top. Perhaps somewhere centrally located, like in southern Iowa?





Post Reply
You must be logged in to Post a Message.
Not a member register Here.
Already registered? Please Login





If you have a website and would like to set up a forum here at HoseHeadForums.com
please contact us by using the contact link at the top of the page.

© 2018 HoseHeadForums.com Privacy Policy