Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I enjoyed every High Limit race this year, as I subscribed to both Flo and DV.  I saw no issues, and enjoyed both series.  However, I'm not going to stray from my overall thought process that the HL is going to have to toughen up, and piss all of the Outlaw haters off by becoming more like the Outlaws.

I could have attended 2 HL races this year that were in my area.  However, it would have been an inconvenience for me to do so.  Had it been my only chance to see those "committed" HL guys, I would have put those races on my schedule and made the arrangements with work.  However, i didn't have to attend those events to see those drivers at Davenport (which was rained out anyways) and 34 Raceway.  You see, they were going to be in Knoxville in mid-June anyways because the HL did not schedule against the Outlaw event there.  In the future, the HL is going to make decisions in it's best interest, and will have to start scheduling against these other Outlaw events.  They will also have to find a way to contractually bind full time drivers to these events.  Additionally, they are going to have to find a way to keep "full time committed" drivers from straying away from the schedule to run events with other sanctioning bodies.  If that were my only chance to see those guys run, other than the Nats, I would have made arrangements to make it happen.  34 Raceway was in mid-May.  Davenport in early-June.  Didn't do it because all of those guys were in Knoxville in mid-June.  I don't know what the attendance was like at 34, or what it would have been like at Davenport.  But I do know a number of folks that held out to see those guys run in June, in the same vicinity.  

As many of you know, I'm a supporter of the WoO policy keeping their Platinum drivers under contract.  That is why.  The HL is going to have to tighten the reigns because I'm assuming it's their eventual goal to compete against the Outlaws all season without 3-4 week breaks.  Time will tell.

That all said, I enjoyed both series immensely this year, and hope both can continue to field full shows!  Just please be aware, if you are amongst those that thought the HL series was going to revolutionize the way drivers are paid and contracted for their services, you may end up very disappointed.  They are both running businesses and will make the changes necessary to protect their revenue--as they should.  

I think you have it the other way around.    The Outlaws are actually starting to be more like High Limit racing.    Outlaws now finally have a traveling safety crew (just like HL).       Outlaws can now race in 4 non WoO races.   Before HL they had to ask for permission.       Platinum Outlaws could race PA speed week (or elsewhere 4th of July weekend) this season.    That hadn’t happened before.     DirtVision has the “DirtVision Zone” which is just like the “Flo Zone” that was offered on Floracing a few years ago.     Outlaws now have a “fan of the night” which (I believe) started after HL started giving fans money for the Durst Dice Roll.

Who is the leader now ?

One thing never mentioned about the exclusivity vs freedom argument is that High Limit has yet to produce a full slate of races. Therefore they have no leverage in demanding their drivers to race only with them. As Egras has mentioned before, once this changes, you'll get restrictions or there will be so much overlap, it'll only be the Crown Jewels which feature guys from both series. 

Bingo

Fan zone and "fan of the night" are of no consequence to this argument.  

Valid points on other arguments, but it only strenghtens what I'm saying.  They series have to,  do, and will continue to be required to adapt to the changing circumstances, no matter what the reasoning.  The Outlaws adapted and reacted years ago by offering the Platinum package.  They needed to assure all of their advertised drivers showed for all advertised races.  They then reacted to the creation of the HL series by offering their drivers 4 non WoO races.  And, because their drivers didn't get racing in for weeks due to weather, they adapted by offering drivers a choice to run PA Speedweeks.

What I'm saying is, and as DSC1600 expanded on, the HL will have to adapt as well once they run up against the WoO schedule in the coming years.  This is going to piss a lot of folks off that think the HL is about freedom and charity.  It's going to be all about money and protecting their brand. 

Half full stands at a HL race in Iowa on a Tuesday because I can see Sweet, Larson, Day, Rico, etc at an Outlaw race on a Saturday night, will not be protecting their brand.  

The HL on purpose had weeks off for the big shows.  That way they can run the big shows with the Woo and all the shows with the HL.  

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

I think this is pretty obvious for 2024.  The point was, when they don't do this and they decide to schedule some events, what do they do to protect the HL, and get all of the committed HL drivers to their show?  For example, if they HL schedules something in mid-June and competes with the WoO 2-day show at Knoxville, what keeps the HL drivers with the HL, rather than allows them to go to Knoxville?  After all, the 2-day Knoxville show is not a crown jewel event, just $12,000 to win shows.  What if the HL schedules a $20,000 to win show in Ohio?  What keeps the HL drivers on tour with the HL, vs. heading to Knoxville to sharpen their pencils for the Nats?   (And please don't say $8000 to the winner----not a big enough difference)

You don't actually think the HL is going to continue to sit idle for weeks at a time, do you?  

I think you will find they will continue to let their drivers run the big shows that are not HL races in the future.  That is what they want to do run all the HL big shows as well as 

many of the Woo Big shows.. that way they can run for big money more often.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

HL already has rules in place to help ensure that their full time drivers show up to all their races.    To be eligible for the point fund and provisionals, drivers must remain in “good standing” and attend all races.   The 2024 rule book states “Good standing shall mean such members that have attended 100% of the High Limit Events to the date when a provisional is needed and have not participated in unsanctioned High Limit Events on the same dates of all High Limit sanctioned Events.”

It seems like Egras and DSC are making 2 very big assumptions.

#1.  That HL will expand their schedule into March (the month of rainouts) and November and/or add many races to the number scheduled in 2024.

#2.  That they won’t let full time driver race outside of HL once they expand their schedule.

Have you two ever heard what happens when you assume ?   

Again, this was all by design. Some drivers take those weekends off or raced elsewhere. I think another question will be what will happen if say a Knoxville or a Husets decides to schedule a HL race (or would/could they). I think right now there are more questions still than answers, but I think some have been answered. For example, The proof there is a need for 2 national tours. There were 28 teams touring nationally. I was even skeptical in the beginning, but HL kept 16 teams all year. I would be happy with 12 to 15 per series. Also the money that the drivers have won. There are already more drivers with 6 figures in earnings this then last and there is still racing to go. Gravel actually has a chance to reach 7 figures if he wins the championship.

Some good points. I think HL series does have some restrictions in place like a committed driver has to run their scheduled races to receive series benefits like tow and point fund money. This is just like the Outlaw and Lucas oil latemodel series. They have no restriction on where they can race if their series is off only when they are scheduled to race. Their is also alot cooperation with some of the bigger shows. Neither schedules against the World and the Drean at Eldora. Lucas is off for the PDC, USA nat. and World Finals Outlaw events. Outlaws are off for Knoxville LM Nat., DTWC, North/South 100. But not all will race these events when off. Some race elsewhere or they take off.

The outlaw restrictions that they put on their drivers is not all bad. I believe the initial reason for it was not only to protect the series, but the drivers as well. For example, how many neighboring tracks would take advantage of the Outlaws and their drivers by scheduling a big race the night before or after the series was in the area. Possibly getting those drivers to possibly show up and race. If one of those drivers get hurt, they are the ones going to suffer. The track got what they wanted and now the driver/team and series could suffer.

However, with the way the Outlaws are structured/scheduled now, how many more races could their drivers run if they wanted to? Maybe 10-12. So what would it actually hurt to lift their restriction?

I think this where HL has an advantage. There drivers can race 50 to 60 races for national touring benefits and race another 20 to 30 times if they choose or get time off to regroup. Their busiest part of their schedule has been since Knoxville.

Half way through last season, I "assumed" the High Limit would expand beyond a weekly fill-in show to a full time schedule.  Everyone asked me why I was assuming this, and called me insane.  Businesses either grow, or shrink.  That's the only options.  So, I would "assume" High Limit will not be resting on their current success or business model, and they would expand.  The only other option is contract.  They cannot stay the same, and the schedule, and model will change.  What options are there?  Add dates and tracks.  

Maybe comparing apples to oranges, but latemodels don't have contracts. Pretty much just a signed agreement and series rules. Bshep this year ran both series with perfect attendance and received the team benefits for both series until conflicting races between both series when he chose the outlaws. Jimmy Owens started with agreement both as well and chose Lucas oil. The team actually forgot to turn their agreement in on time and missed the chance to use a provisional at a race. I think that is HL business model. You race our events when scheduled and receive these certain perks to include freedom to race when we are not or take some time off if needed. Or go make babies. Hell 4 of them either just had a child or are expecting lol.

Isn't a signed agreement the same thing as a contract?

Yes it was all by design to lose revenue and streaming content by not scheduling races and allow your competitor to benefit from the drivers you're working hard to market for your series....

If High Limit could schedule 70-80 races they would. And if that happens, the opportunities to race with other series will be much less common. 

Whether you agree with me or not, I'm enjoying the good discussion.  I know I skipped a couple of High Limit races because I would see them all at Outlaw races.  Only point I was making.  Good points from all though.  

That is great thought, but I don't know if they need to. It may depend on that streaming revenue. But remember that is only for the owners. The tow and point fund is all seperate. IF someone is in the know about how HL does their tow money package, I am all ears. I heard it is performance based. Doe sthat mean the top 5 HL finishers get $600, the next 5 get $500 and the rest $400. Is that how it works. If so, I like that. If not, it should be lol.

You missed a helluva finish at 34 raceway. Just electric. You didn't miss getting out of there though. Placed was packed and just as we were leaving, train came through. The worst track to get out of was even worse.

Something that is of some level of significance is that HL will actually HAVE a "beyond 2024."  The two previous national competitors to WoO, the USA and NST, both did not make it past their first national seasons.  Granted, the reasons were vastly different but the result was the same.

Signature here.

A) Depends on what you consider a "full slate of races". WoO schedule, with all the traveling, is brutal. HL schedule is easier on men & equipment, & gives teams the freedom to race more if they want to. Who doesn't want more $ for a shorter work week?

B) No leverage?  "On Porch" said it best: "HL already has rules in place to help ensure that their full time drivers show up to all their races.    To be eligible for the point fund and provisionals, drivers must remain in “good standing” and attend all races.   The 2024 rule book states “Good standing shall mean such members that have attended 100% of the High Limit Events to the date when a provisional is needed and have not participated in unsanctioned High Limit Events on the same dates of all High Limit sanctioned Events....”