Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I would like to get an honest opinion on this subject.  Please don't get on your high horse and act like the normal hosehead response.  Put some thought into it before you type.  One request for a response on this post.  If you live within say an hour of an established sprint car track, do not get on this post and just bash.  I don't want to here that you watched on flo or dirtvision and it is killing the track because the stands looked bad.  If you are that person that is within that hour and is able to go but would rather complain please move on.  I know that there are people out there that watch on tv because they are not able to go, either health, monetarily,  or time wise and I understand.  Ok now that I have had my disclaimer!  I am one of them that thinks it helps the sport and track.  I worked on race cars in PA for a few years and got to go to the awesome tracks that PA has to offer.  Now I am back home in Central Arkansas.  I have i30 speedway about 50 minutes from me and will go to the shows when they have them, usually twice a month.  With PPV I can still watch as much PA racing as I want, which is usually every weekend.  As a fan it is great.  Now for the track side of it.  Through flo a genuine sprint car fan can watch racing all evening.  I can flip over and watch CA races after east coast racing.  The racing out there is awesome as well.  My t shirt collection has been growing with CA drivers.  Then I read where Corey Day is coming to the Midwest to race.  Usually for an ASCS show I would not drive to far to see, but I found myself driving to US 36 in MO which is about 5.5 hours one way to watch Day race.  Why because I have watched this up and coming kid race all year on flo. Without ppv I would have not gone to US 36 or own a Corey day t shirt.  I know it is only one paid ticket in the grandstands but I know I can't be the only one.  I would love to have been able to go to knoxville for the nationals not only because it is the nationals, but I would get to watch guys like Justin sanders and Corey day also getting to see the Wagners, macri, and stutts as well as the knoxville weekly contegent who I have watch most Saturday nights as well on dirtvision.

I subscribe to both Flo and Dirtvision on an annual basis and have for three years now. Living on the west coast (Skagit has been my home track) is great. I get to start watching east coast shows starting around 4:00pm on Friday and Saturday and then work my way across the country until aout 11:00pm at night when I get to see the 360 or 410 action in California. I love both services and plan to keep watching. Multiple nights I get together with some buddies and get two screens going with different tracks while we play cribbage.

I get to Skagit when I can. Enjoyed watching Sunshine dominate at DIrt Cup this year. However, I've recently signed a two year contract to teach on the other side of the planet. I might be able to get down to Australia and check out Warrnambool in late January. It will depend on travel restrictions. That said, I plan to lean on both subcriptions for two years. Again, I love both servies and would probably pay more for each. That said, when I return to the states in a couple of years my hope is to hit PA speedweek live or perhaps return to Kings Royal and the Nationals. I've spend two of my past three summers taking vacations just to hit sprint car races.

I Will bet that it will cost more next year.

I don't begrudge anyone for their race attendance frequency, PPV watching habits, or anything of that ilk. Do what works for you. For me, I've had days where I worked all day in the heat and humidity and when I was finished I was like, "Fuck it, I'm not going to the track. I worked all day in it, and I just want to sit in the AC and have a glass or three of whiskey". So I did.

Tracks, PPV providers, and sanctioning bodies will adapt and figure out the best business model that works for each of them respectively, but it will probably involve some fighting and arguing. Why? Money. That's not a knock, that's just the way it is. Everyone wants the biggest possible piece of pie for themselves and interests will always clash in that regard. 

To me, if a track is unhappy with the money they are getting from a PPV provider, hold out for more money. It should go without saying that that is dependent on what type of agreement was signed between the parties. I'd have to imagine these PPV providers are able to see how many views a particular track generates, so they'd know which one's are more valuable so to speak. If a certain track draws a couple hundred thousand views as compared to several hundred, then maybe that track could demand more money. After all, they are drawing more eyeballs to the screen.

Flo provides a insane amount of racing for my $150 and I really like and appreciate it, but yeah, unless they are drawing enormous numbers I'd expect the price to go up next year.

Chad, thanks for the disclaimer, hopefully this thread doesn't get hijacked like every other one. I feel just the opposite however. I am one that sees crowds dwindling week to week for regular shows here in PA. The marquee events still get packed every year, so it's the weekly events that I see are dying. I also believe the tracks here in PA literally survive by 6-8 weekends a year. Until the public knows how much these tracks are getting from Flo and DV, this debate will go on forever, and obviously those numbers will never be released. Yes, it's great that the whole country gets to see the PA Posse but the PA fans can also sit at home and watch Port, Lincoln, All Stars, and Outlaws all in the same night. 
And yes, I have done that on occasion. It's GREAT for the fans, but I'm afraid weekly shows will be gone at some point. 

My choices last night by way of example was eight classes total car count 86 all IMCA Stock Car and Modified classes or the Knoxville Nationals on Dirtvision.  Tonight I can go to another multi class Stock Car and Modified show half an hour from home or watch the final night of the Knoxville Nationals from home.  
 

As far as PPV vs attending I have come full circle on that.  For a while I felt apologetic about it but I got to thinking about my other main sporting obsession, the Vikings.  I went to my first race in 1960 and the Vikings played their first game in 1961 so I have been a fan close to the same amount of time.  I rarely go to games but if I tell someone I'm a huge fan and watch on tv nobody is going to question how big of a fan I am.  Racing on the other hand has this ongoing debate about whether fans who watch from home are "real fans".   I wouldn't be paying for two streaming channels if I wasn't a dirt track fan and I love being able to watch the best race available on any given night.  If I wasn't watching Sprint Cars on streaming channels I wouldn't go to those local tracks.  Some talk about the revenue agreement between tracks and streaming services but I don't concern myself with those business arrangements. I pay my annual fee to the streaming services and that is my only obligation.  If they decide to raise their prices a year from now I will evaluate my finances and decide if I want to continue to use their services.  I'm 71 and like most my age the heat, long drives, and lack of anyone to share driving and expenses makes travel to races difficult.  Then there is the question if the live experience is worth the expense when the same race is on tv at home.  
 

I won't get into my background again but I chased races for years.  I am not going to point fingers at someone in their 20's who watches streaming races instead of attending.  The way I look at it no matter what our age or background in racing it's nobody's business what the hell I do on a Saturday night.  If some folks want to rag on their fellow racing fans for their personal choices have at it.  
 

A week ago a friend I have known since 1980 went to wake up his wife and she had suffered an aneurysm.  She never regained consciousness and they disconnected her from life support on Sunday.  My wife isn't a racing fan and won't go to races with me.  She stood by for close to twenty years while I lived my dream of writing and photographing races and running one of the first racing websites in my area.  I owe her a lot for her putting up with me missing family functions and chasing races and spending countless hours hunched over a computer working on racing photos and writing deadlines.  What happened to our friends reminded me to focus on important things and keep entertainment in its place.
 

I think it's time for Sprint Car fans to get off peoples backs for streaming races.  This is 2022, not 1952.  We can follow our passions online and that is what I'm doing.  If racing is in such a dire situation that it won't survive without me attending events I'm not interested in it's got bigger problems than me.  We could take it a step further and say that Sprint Car fans who live near drag strips should go to drag races.  How far do we take that concept of supporting racing? 
 

Stan Meissner

One comment on Floracing prices.  Flo offers racing along with other sports.  If they raise the price it goes up for Sprint Car fans, hockey, cheerleading, figure skating, bull riding and whatever else is included.  Racing is bundled with many sports that cost much less to produce.  That gives them an advantage in that their revenue comes from a wide variety of interests and I suspect will keep the cost of racing content in check.  A buck made by FloSports is a buck made.

I have no idea what direction streaming will go but it's pretty awesome right now and that is my only concern.  At my age I don't know if I'll even be around next season.  "Eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow streaming prices my increase" Stan M philosophy on life and streaming races, chapter 1 vs 1.

Stan Meissner

I like the streaming services.  But there is nothing like being live.  We couldn't make it to Knoxville this year.  However, watching it on dirtvison is better than not seeing anything.  The coverage is great on both Flo and dirtvison.  Bottom line for me when I plan to go to the races, I will go instead of watching on streaming services. There is nothing better than being live and hearing the engines and I get to watch where I want to instead of where they want me to watch.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

     I feel like the future of dirt track racing is tied to streaming services. As someone mentioned above, the details need to be worked out so that it works for all parties involved. I think it's going to cause some changes in the sport. Maybe not all of them will be good. Tracks that run a good show will bring in more viewers which should make them more money. Your local track, on the other hand, might not be able to keep up and will wither away. My fear is that it becomes crazier racing but more "entertainment" each year, like crappy reality tv has become. Watch YouTube videos of the jackass hobby stock racers fighting and crashing each other's cars. I hope that's not the future.

How many fans stayed home to watch PPV of the Nationals, instead of buying tickets? Saturday finals are SOLD OUT.

I remember when Sprint Car racing used to be on ESPN and the Diamond P productions.  They broadcast it for a few years until Diamond P and whatever channel that was went away.  Meanwhile ESPN went to an all stick and ball format and dropped their racing broadcasts.  That was back when all the talk was about Sprint Car racing getting on TV and going to the next level.  Then we did without much televised racing until PPV started up with the fuzzy broadcasts and connection/streaming problems.  We endured that until the quality of the service and broadcasts improved to the point we are at today and they providers went from a PPV model to a monthly and annual package similar to streaming companies like Netflix.  Today we can watch any big race or use local streaming services to watch weekly racing.

So here we are, we can watch every race wherever we are and more money is being added to purses and funneling back to the racers.  I think we all wanted to see an influx of money and races on television.  Yet some of us still seem to have a problem getting on board with the idea of streaming for whatever reason.  For example, in one thread, maybe this one, someone said we should "support our local tracks" because they noticed an attendance drop in PA.  I'm still trying to figure out how my attending the eight class IMCA program last night in Princeton, Minnesota, instead of staying home like I did and watching Friday of the Nationals helps that track in PA or adds anymore than three nights of 410 specials at Cedar Lake per season.  If some local tracks aren't happy with their streaming revenue there are still a lot of these services.  I know in my area some of the tracks that only run those classes use local services that they feel are a better fit for their weekly shows.  I think the big events are still going to be out there and as I mentioned, the Flosports umbrella includes many which in my mind should drive the price down as they likely have numbers of total subscribers that are more than any dedicated dirt track channel.  Dirtvision is the king of content with the Outlaws and events like the Nationals which logically will allow them to price their product higher.

I'm happy with where we are at right now.  If streaming were to go away I would go back to the same couple of races per year, text updates and youtube hilites.  It wouldn't make any difference in my ability to attend races or magically send a travel companion my way to share the driving and motels and bench race during the trip.  That is the bottom line for me, I don't enjoy going alone, doing all the driving and sitting by myself when the same race is on TV in the man cave.  That will be more true every year that goes by. 

I'm just happy to be able to keep up with the sport and am over taking crap on Sprint Car forums for my TV viewing preferences.  I'm a streamer and I'm not ashmed of it. 

Stan Meissner

I love the streaming option. 

I still travel when I can to tracks within 1-3 hours when I can. I even made a long haul last year (an 18-hour drive to PA for National Open), but having Flo and DV as options works well for me as there are no 410 sprints in my area. Occasional 360s, but mostly 305s. 

We still need to keep the fans coming through the gate and connect with every new generation. Entertainment options are plentiful, so streaming has its place and value. 

The idea has been around for a while. It's just now maturing. As a kid, I spent Friday nights at Black Hills Speedway in Rapid City South Dakota. At the time, they filmed the races and then showed them on Sunday, a week later, on a lowbrow cable channel out Denver that was part of our cable package. That was 1973!, and it was filmed and broadcast in black and white.

I remember when Flo hired the new guy to take over, and he made a promise to deliver, and wow has he ever.  I would have to say the best value for content that there is.

I also have to say that the Outlaws, at least Platinum members, are getting absolutely screwed.  I saw an attempted interview with Kyle Larson yesterday about why are the Late Model guys allowed to race anywhere and everywhere they want at anytime, and the sprint car guys are not. Great question. With Brad Sweet and him starting a new series with Flo on board, it might come to an ugly head next year.

I am wondering what was discussed at the meeting with Brian Carter.  I truly hope he is open to freeing these guys up next year. These guys deserve more mid week races for more money just like the late model guys get.

I am not asking anyone else to do it, but I will not pay for Dirtvision again until I know for sure what they will or will not do. I am hoping they do the right thing.

My honest opinion is that, all things being equal, very few people would take streaming over in person.  My state has 1 ASCOC race this year, that I went to.  I went 5 hours to Ohio and Indiana to watch when I could. Going to national races isn't very realistic for me.  When it is, you bet I'll be there.  But the other 99.6% of the time, I'm relegated to watching online.  I feel that's the norm among fans.  I don't think streaming hurts attendance one bit.  And I'm very, very confident that it doesn't hurt the track's bottom line one bit.

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If you lived where you went to the tracks more and had racing available weekly you would see where you are wrong about hurting attendance especially when weather is not ideal. Not as much with the speccial events as the weekly shows.

In my case staying home to watch the All Stars, Outlaws and big Late Model shows vs going to a local 8 entry classes marathon at tracks that don't even host Sprint specials does absolutely nothing for me.  It might as well be a road coarse for all I care at that point.  Take this week for example as far as attending goes.  The Jackson Nationals are about 3 1/2 to 4 hours.  When I was 50 it was no problem driving home after the races but I don't make those all night drives anymore.

Seems every time this topic comes up someone reminds me that races are best experienced live.  Well, you think I don't know that after going to races for 62 years?  I go a few times when I can meet the family at the track and have someone to sit with but that is one or two Sprint shows close to home.  They aren't going to travel out of town.  Maybe this weekend if the weather cooperates I'll go watch the limited Sprints but the Jackson Nationals will be on at home.  My rule of thumb is that I watch the best show available whether that is at home or a local special.  

There is no one size fits all and memories of spent methanol and clay showers while taking photos are indelibly etched in my memory.  The biggest negative about watching from home is that I seldom talk with other racing fans face to face.  I try to engage in that kind of chat online but as everyone knows it can be ruthless trying to have a meaningful discussion.  I miss camping at the track for multi day events and bench racing around the campfire.  Have been to a couple Knoxville Nationals, the Eldora Million, 40 tracks and countlese hundreds of races.  Life changes when we get to older and most who watch the majority of their racing online would go if the circumstances allow. 

Stan Meissner

You are right there is no one fits all. Every time this subject comes up it seems no one understands that there is a place on this earth where there three tracks that run 410's every week and four five others that run occasional 410 shows . You could plop your self down in the middle and get to all of them in an hour or just few minutes more. That is where my opinions come from. and the tracks have to stay in business or there is nothing to film for ppv.

This has been a hotter than usual summer and a lot of people can't take the heat.  The racing fan base has a lot of gray hairs and we lose more of them (or I should probably say us) every season.  That could partially explain the lower than normal attendance.  Bottom line is we're all captian of our own ship.  If we want to go to races we are free to do that.  If we want to watch streaming races we have that right as well.  If some folks in certain areas where there are three weekly 410 tracks are worried about attendance it seems their efforts should be directed towards bringing more friends and family to those tracks.  If I go watch one of the local Hornets, Pure Stocks, Street Stocks, IMCA Stock Cars, WISSOTA Street Stocks, WISSOTA Super Stocks, IMCA Sports Mod, and IMCA Modified or whatever mix of classes the tracks near me run weekly it is of no benefit to either of us.  I don't go watch those entry class shows and if I did it wouldn't be of any benefit to your local tracks. 

Stan Meissner

I love the option of streaming races from around the country and world.  However, the NFL has a blackout for everyone within a certain amount of miles if the crowd does not reach a certain % of capacity.  Is it possible to blackout within say a 50 (or 75 or 100) mile radius?  

I would also like to add, I don't think streaming services are the #1 reason for dropping attendance at our dirt tracks.  It's the explosion of club sports IMO.