Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Random Sprint Car thoughts and predictions on a lazy, rainy day in Central Pa

Check out our predictions and make a couple of your own.

I predict a beautiful weekend for racing in Central Pa...

I predict that Port will have a massive crowd on Saturday for the Free Feature Frenzy...

I predict that Smitty will not cash in his golden ticket for SSP on Sunday and share our good board...

I also predict that Hawkeye and Gators will not accept the olive branch extended by AREA 51 on Saturday...

Beyond that, the crystal ball gets a little cloudy...   :/

Opinions may vary...

Jeremy, I like reading your articles but noticed a slight contradiction in your article here. For PA you stated that domanince is a good thing and the cars in PA are too equal making it difficult to pass and that has produced 18 different winners. Then you stated that you would take in a WoO race anytime even though they have received heat for front row winners, but the racing quality has been great given the jockeying back and forth. Wouldn't these two things be the same?

The WoO have had 15 different winners and no one is dominating the win count. I know that we are talking about a touring series vs a weekly series but given how tough Central PA is and the quality of drivers they have I would think we could group them into being just as good. Now Granted I have only seen highlights of races as I live in Ohio so I have not actually seen how the races have played out and if the winner at the Grove has just pulled away from the field with now challenges or not. I personally think Parity is a good thing, when someone dominates and especially if it is someone that the fans do not cheer for (whether it be rational or not) I think it deters people. I think Jimmie Johnson dominating has hurt Nascar, and Donny Schatz dominating at times in his career has kind of hurt the outlaws. Those drivers did nothing wrong mind you, just did their jobs, but personally I know myself I do not want to go to a race when there is a good chance someone that I do not like has a higher chance of winning than everyone else.

All valid points. Maybe fans have changed a bit. I remember drivers dominating and fans, at least in this area, showing up to see them get beat. And then when it did happen, the electricity through the stands was contagious. Things like that led to the Fred Rahmer-Jeff Sheperd banter back and forth years ago...it generated such a buzz. 

I think NASCAR and the World of Outlaws is a different animal. They have a different fan base every week, plus, I think the Sprint Cup series had a drop after Earnhardt Sr. died and now a leveling off period.

As for the WoO this year, they are a traveling series that has a larger pool of competitors if you add up all the drivers that have run a WoO show this season. The format also lends itself to more winners, as you can time 16th and basically make your night by finishing in the top two in a heat race and getting a good draw for the dash. I would also argue that there has been dominance on the WoO circuit by two guys. Donny Schatz and Daryn Pittman have accounted for 12 victories, which is a third of the races run this season.

I see what your saying about the national/touring series and agree with those points. I don't think Pittman and Schatz have really "dominated" and are really out matching everyone else. Saldana has 4wins and 3drivers have 3 wins (Madsen,Sweet,Gravel). Plus you have 4drivers within 50pts of each other then you get back to the guys that have had trouble at certain points of the season.

As far as the parity arguement again, I think parity is what is best but also rivaliaries are probably the greatest thing for the sport. To this day people still have the Steve vs Sammy debate and as you mentioned Rahmer vs Shepard for PA. I think if you do have rivalry (not dominance necessarily) makes for the best racing depending on the two drivers. Sorry to use another nascar reference but take for instance Kyle Busch vs Jimmie Johnson. Two great drivers but a majority of fans do not like them for one reason or another. If those two are winning everything then it hurts the sport statistically (along with other thing) Again for me I would love to go to Dover Downs but probably won't anytime soon because chances are one of those two will win. Any good rivalries you potentially see in PA or with the outlaws?

You need the right guys to get involved, and someone has to win a lot. Simply because the forum of Victory Lane helps stoke the rivalry. Not with the World of Outlaws. Schatz would be great, but Pittman is such nice guy and never says anything controversial. Joey Saldana is the same way. Now, if it was Steve Kinser and Schatz, that would be good. They aren't fond of each other.

In Central Pa, anyone and Dietrich. He is the key. But Hodnett, Montieth and anyone else that could win a lot, are really nice guys that thank the fans -- which is a good thing -- more than calling out other drivers. I just don't think with parity, drivers win enough to get something started. There can be rivalries, but no one cares if both drivers are battling for sixth, seventh or eighth.

410s are finally starting to grow a little bit for the first time in 20 years around here. Why in the hell would you want to stick them harder again and try to kill them back off? Basically what you are saying is they need to stick them harder again so only the people who can afford to rebuild their motors every 6 races will be able to pass people. Let me guess... You were for opening up the 358 rules as well??? This is the problem with hired gun drivers, engine builders and press who don't have any skin in the game dictating rules. The only people with a clear take on the financial implications are CAR OWNERS.

Besides, I don't ever remember people coming from the back like they have the past five years since Karl and Steve Kinser used to do it in their heyday. Rahmer came from 24th against the Outlaws at the Grove in 2010 on Goodyears. Schatz came from the tail at the Nationals and Montieth from the tail at Port Royal with the Hoosiers. Schatz had 23 wins last year. He has no problem coming from the back with these tires.

The guys out front in clean air have an advantage. People are coming up through the field in dirty air all the time until they get to the guy out front unless he is in traffic himself. Why would you ever think sticking them harder is going to make it easier to pass him??? The leader is only going to go faster and punch an even bigger hole in the air. When they were going 20 mph slower 20 years ago we didn't have these problems. If anything they need to lower the top wing angle so they don't make as much downforce and turbulance for the guy behind them. Whatever the case the overriding problem is that they are still TOO FAST, not too slow.

Anyone who wants the ability to spend more money to be the deciding factor in winning races instead of driving and set-up ability is wrong.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

I really don't know what you mean about harder. Tires? Not sure. As for the rest of your thoughts, I agree with some of them and others, not so much. 

Guys used to routinely start 18th at the Grove and come through and win or land in the top five. That is far and few between now. Did they have an advantage, sure. But that is racing. It's a sport that always had the haves and the have nots. The sport boomed in the 60s, 70s and 80s and early 90s because of this. There were more cars and certainly more fans. But, you could also make your own parts and build a car in your garage. Unfortunately, the sport will never return to that. 

That is the biggest culprit here...technology. Now, guys can go buy speed in a box and there is no making your own parts. If two cars are the same, the track prep provides one lane, you have locked down tires and you are on a big half mile, cars aren't going to pass. Plain and simple.

As for Schatz last year, 12 of his wins came off the front row. 6 more came off row 2. It's not like he was coming from the back in all those wins. And keep in mind, Knoxville was a 50-lap race and was three grooves. It's one of the better tracks in the country as far as multiple grooves. That's not to say those races were bad races. Also not diminishing what he accomplished. He is truly the best Sprint Car driver in the world right now.

I never said open everything up. You can't do that anymore. I'm just not in favor of tire rules and I'm all for places like Knoxville and others looking to make things better. In summation, there are good and bad points with rules...including tires. What is the answer, I don't know. 

You don't hear about these types of complaints in other forms of dirt racing. The difference is our cars are blazing fast because the tires and wings stick them so hard and they punch such a big hole in the air. We have the biggest tires and wings of any racing series. It's the same reason motors are so expensive and need rebuilt so often. There is a reason late model tires are much harder and narrower and it isn't because they are faster that way. The current tire rule which at least doesn't allow for tapered tires helps substantially. If you went back to open tires costs will go up drastically and car counts will go down just like the 358s. All race teams are spending way more now and going way faster than premier teams of yesteryear. Opperman came from the back 30 years ago on hard narrow tires with a 358 wing and 358 horsepower. Tire and aerodynamic fixes are easy. They do them all the time in every other racing series around the world.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

18 years ago was a different time. The competition is more level and yeah drivers can buy speed in a box but if they do not know how to control it all the speed in the world will mean nothing. I have watched highlights from most of the knoxville races and they have been great, as well as Attica/Fremont and been to a few of those races. The racing has been great through the heats and features. I have not seen much of the Grove but most half miles in sprint car racing are very tough, The leader can keep his momentum up while everyone behind him is sliding in and out of traffic. Like cubic said, interest is up for the first time in a long time so lets just enjoy it. Whenever people start throwing out rule change suggestions something always gets screwed up and the racing suffers. The only rule changes that I would be in favor for if I was a driver or owner would be safety. Other than that leave it alone because the racing suffers and the bank account suffers

Knoxville is sharp. A lot of track promoters are. They want car count which is in the best interest of grass roots sprint car racing. Thank God they are calling a lot of the shots and are at the forefront on most of the rules that come down the pike with the summits and such. Everyone bitched about the weight rule and it has saved money and lives. Everyone complained about tire and wing rules and they have saved on engine rebuilds and budget teams are grinding tires and running them for weeks, especially left rears. You can't trust hired gun racers, tire companies or engine builders to come up with rules. It has been proven over and over again. Track promoters and budget car owners are usually the only ones that have the best interest of the sport in mind.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

The teams I'm talking to at Williams Grove and most tracks in the area are using their right rears for one feature and maybe a heat race. That is it. There could be a slight change in tires for next season, as the side walls are a little too stiff and don't grow in the corner. Then, they roll under the car and it is tough to pass. We will see.

As far as car counts go, they aren't growing. I have the numbers from previous years, and they are about the same. I also wouldn't say fans are growing. At least not at Williams Grove. Crowds have been putrid on Friday nights this season. Port and Lincoln are holding steady. So, I would say holding steady but not growing. 

A D15 is a lot harder than the RD12s and D10s they used to run. They last considerably longer if you don't cut them up. Teams with money cut the crap out of their tires and only get one night out of them. Teams without can get more than one night out of a RR and multiple nights out of their LRs. They should make it illegal to cut up tires next. The main beef from top teams however is that they don't get free tires anymore. Their tire bills are no longer being subsidized by all the lower budget teams. Non-tapered hard tires help budget teams. They can tweek the sidewalls to help handling, etc. But if they go back to tapered tires, high-growth left rears or soft compounds engine bills and car counts will suffer. It is common sense. Lucky places like Knoxville know better and don't buy into all the BS. They have been through it before.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Cubic got it right. Gators...you must not have been around long enough to remember tracks suffering through poor car counts and dominating drivers in the 70's- 80's. It wasn't very good racing seeing the same drivers win from the back each week. I prefer the type of racing we see now over what you say was the "boom" days.

I was around in the 80s. Do you want good racing or do you want more winners? Does the passing have to come from deep in the field or can a guy come from row 2 or 3? it seems people don't know what the want.

I don't know who you are talking to, but the guys I'm hitting about this issue — low buck and high dollar — have said the only good thing about this tire rule is that they don't have to stock as many tires because the decision is made for you with the two compounds that are usable. 

There is one team in this area that indicated the tapered tires were better yet as far as racing. Now, I'm not so sure of that, but the key to any decision, whether it is no tire rule or a tire rule in relationship to car counts, is that everyone does the same thing. It's when different tracks close to each other have different rules that hurts car counts. Right now, it is stagnant. But we lost Trone, Leach, Owens to name a few the last two years. We have picked up a couple guys, but really only Ryan Smith and Austin Hogue run more than one night a week. And Smith is a push because he was in a back-up Kreitz car.

And trust me, there are a lot of cars and organizations teetering now — meaning one car and very few spare parts — and in jeopardy of having to miss races, which will hurt the car count. 

I have close ties to both winning and low buck teams. I'm not hearing complaints from either side. Competition is tough , it's not the rules.

One word of advice, don't let the teams make the rules. Just look at what the 358 teams wanted and now look at the results.

Ps.... I do see good racing , passing doesn't always mean it's good racing.

I think the attendance issues at Williams Grove can be attributed to a couple of factors

1.  They seem to be getting rained out all the time. 

2.  Their facility isn't as nice as some of the other tracks. 

So couple those two issues together and people just hold out for saturdays. 

I've enjoyed the racing I've seen thus far this season but, I've sworn off the big half mile tracks like the Grove, Port and the other Grove...

I prefer the small half miles of Lincoln, SSP, Trail Way and Path Valley...   :/   

Opinions may vary...