Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

how can passing points be fair when the driver who starts pole cant really pass anyone ?

Passing points are mainly used in conjunction with receiving points by finishing position. 

A random example would be giving the heat winner 20 points and descending by two points (ie: 2nd gets 18, 3rd gets 16 and so on through 10th). Then a driver is given 1 point per car passed as a bonus.

There are pros and cons to any format and this is no different - a polesitting winner would get 20 points and a driver who starts 5th and finishes second would end up with 21 points (18 for 2nd, +3 for cars passed), but it balances the field as it gives a fast driver a chance to not be buried by the pill draw. 

TT put the fast guys in the back. Go fast in TT and earn the right to gain more passing points. That's my theory at least, now would it work in practice???

SOD uses a spreadsheet that awards points based on finishing position and starting position (cars passed).  I'm pretty sure it is the same as ASCS uses.

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Considering the declining crowds at dirt tracks all over the country,  should we really be concerned with being "fair"?    I would think the emphasis should be on "entertaining"

Considering half the competitors get mad at drawing the front row and the other half get mad at drawing a last row starting position for PP shows....I think it is perfectly fair....it pisses off everyone!  

If you really wanted it to be entertaining and fair, you would award passing points, and ALWAYS invert the entire field.  That is where sprint car racing went bad, when the put the fastest guys on the front row.  It looks so stupid, when the green flag drops and the guy on the pole, laps cars by lap 2

So you don't think that the fastest car should be rewarded with a better starting position?  Why should you punish the fastest car for being fast?

It is called "putting on a show" and any competitor that enjoys running for other peoples money should be concerned with it. 

Look at the overabundance of IMCA type modified shows around the country and their purse structure....they can't get anyone to pay for a grandstand ticket so they have $1,000 to win / $100 to start shows with a $100 entry fee + $50 pitpass. 

The problem with inversions (event complete inversions) at a World of Outlaws level is that the cars are SO equal that there's not much difference between the "fast" guys and the "slow" guys.  I remember when time trial measurments were changed from 1/100 of a second to 1/1000 of a second because we were getting so many duplicate times.  Now I'd estimate we're getting duplicate times at about 40% of our shows.  Unfortunately the current timing & scoring system doesn't allow for mesurement to 1/10,000 of a second.  

If the cars are so equal that it is stinking up the show....what is the answer?    Smaller/harder tires and a much less effective wing are two solutions that come to mind immediately.  

Why not mandate a spec wing that greatly reduces downforce while still providing the level of rollover protection and sponsor advertising space that everyone has grown accustom to?  

So why even bother having the race then? Just pay the purse off time trials and send everyone home rather than "punishing" the fastest car. After all, something can break in the race. That wouldn't be "fair" to the fastest car.

The answer is simple, Non-Wing. I have never seen a non-wing sprint or midget show without an abundance of passes and slide jobs.

I think Mr. Gibson hit it right on the head, all the cars are "SO equal". bring back inovation. make a cubic inch rule and a right rear tire rule, anything else goes, except for safety.

Who says the racing with WoO isn't good?  This has been one of the best seasons I can recall.  Yes, we had a bad track at Williams Grove Friday, and I don't think I've ever seen a good sprint car race at Orange County.  But even though Daryn Pittman led every lap Saturday, the race between Lucas Wolfe and Don Kreitz for second was excellent, and the fact that they were so engaged allowed Pittman to pull away.  Just because the winner comes from the front row doesn't mean the race isn't good.  New Egypt Tuesday was an excellent race--Pittman tracked down Madsen in traffic and made a dramatic pass for the win, and both Cody Darrah and Logan Schuchart charged from deep in the pack.  There's a LOT more to deciding whether a race is "good" or not than just looking at the starting positions.  (Had lapped cars not spun and taken out the leaders, the 1994 Chili Bowl MAY have had Page Jones lead every lap from the pole and STILL be the best race of any kind I've ever seen. . .)  

Agreed, their is more deciding factors on if a race is good or not than just the starting position of the winner. Look throughout history and a majority of a winners come from the first few rows in any sprint car race, that does not mean that the race was not good. Last years Kings Royal did not have one lead change I believe and Brad Sweet lead every lap after starting second but he and Wimmer exchanged the lead a couple of times in the same lap as well as Schatz. All 3 were 3 wide for about a lap in a half. When i go to a race the biggest thing I look at is how competitive are the cars that are "racing." Are they side by side, sliding and crossing over, are the cars in the middle of the back going back in forth with each other. David Gravel won from the pole at Eldora this year but he also fell back to 3rd at the beginning and charged back up. Not to mention people seem to forget that most features are 30laps long, not a lot of time to have multiple drivers pass 10cars at a time.

I love non-wing and wish there were plenty  more of it.   The argument for wings is safety and advertising space.....which is I floated the idea of a spec wing that gives you all of that without the downforce.   Harder/narrower/stiffer tires have been clamored for many years....nobody seems to have the balls to tell the big boys that it would really save them a ton of engine money. 

The cubic inch rules is the first one that should go. Displacement is the cheapest way to make HP. If modifieds can run 467 CI BB motors, why can't sprint cars?

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Most passing point systems reward both finishing position and cars passed. Some do 2 heats with a total invert for the 2nd heat. However I don't think I've seen a PP system race yet that produced a good feature. This system pretty much guarantees, even more than a TT race, that the fastest guys are gonna be starting upfront. 

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You have never been to the Chili Bowl then.  

Regardless of whether a club uses TT or passing points at the end of the night the fast guys will be at the front unless it's a rubber locked down track with racing resembling a choo choo train.

Stan Meissner