Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Maybe someone has succinctly answered this on here in the past, but I cannot recall what the answer was. Why is it that local 410 winged sprint car racing can only seem to remain "vibrant" in these areas? Now before anyone starts picking my question apart, I know there are likely a dozen pockets or more where WOO type 410s run at scattered tracks coast to coast and can likely name most of them. However, when you think of local drivers competing week in and week out at their local track, these 2 areas first come to mind for being able to field a full A feature of cars, even in these economic times. Why is that? Is it mainly because of limited entertainment options in these areas, so there is more fan interest? Do these areas just happen to have some of the few remaining promoters that are still willing to pay a purse that makes it possible for this class to survive? It just seems like if it was all about money that surely there would be tracks within close proximity to more metropolitan areas that could put up a purse and attract these cars. You can talk all you want about what can be done to reduce the cost of racing, but at the end of the day have the promoters played an equal part in 410 racing's demise in some instances, not all, by being unwilling to increase purses to keep up with the growing costs? I know the track owners have to run their facilities as a business and have to make hard choices, I guess I'm just wondering why this can seemingly only be done well in 2 areas when there are many other areas where the economy and population would seem to be more than adequate to support it.

Just a thought, but promoters have to pay a decent purse to bring the locals back everyweek....they can't race for free. If the car count is down, the seats are more empty, then the promoter says he can't pay a decent purse. It's the ol...."which came first debate". We have a good 410 turn out on weekends here in Ohio @ Attica & Fremont...those guys stay around home for the most part.

I think it's different things for both regions....

In PA, very VERY Passionate fan base, some (not all) car owners with VERY deep pockets to fund the teams, larger metropolitan area to obtain sponsors for the teams. Tracks pay good purses (they could always be better) and point fund $$.

In IA, passionate fan base for only the 410's (some won't walk across the street to see the 360's even if they got in free. Track pays good purses ($600 to start weekly feature), excellent point fund, biggest race of the year allows teams to "curb" expenses if they can make the Top 10 or better in the B main on Saturday of Nationals.

Other areas have some of these, but not all. OH is very strong car count wise currently, but lacks good purses on a consistent basis (although they are getting better). IN could cultivate a good winged 410 package, but why would the promoters do it? They can get USAC or other non-wing cars for less than 1/2 the purse costs of a 410 show.

Economy has some to do with it as well, as sponsors and deep pocketed owners are becoming less and less. Problem I see is that the guys that used to run 410's that got out because of cost are now spending more $$$ to run 360's (or 358's or 305's) and the purses are less than a 1/3 of what the 410's run for...

Something's gotta give at some point...

Its mainly one thing in PA that gives us good "super" sprint car racing..... a completely dominant team all throughout the 1960's and early 70's. Everyone either loved or hated the Bud Grimm Ford. All the talented transplants (May, Smith, Allen etc), car owners inspired to work day and night and passionate fan base came because of Bud Grimm. To this day there are countless PA people in racing and fans as well that are still hooked after watching the all time greats throw everything they could at the 88.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

Central PA has 4 410 tracks that run on a weekly basis and a large list of others that run occasionally. Also, it holds one of the largest feeder programs in the 358's. Every year 2-5 drivers move up from the 358's.

The car owners , a tradition of racing in the early days of racing , good promoters , one in particular Jack Gunn started a huge promotional tornado by bringing in various drivers from other parts of the country like Kenny Weld , Bobby Allen , Steve Smith , Jan Opperman , these guys and others ran against the local drivers of Pa and then we had weekly torrid battles on and off the track . So a real soap opera kind of rivalry began on a weekly basis and this in turn created racing that families attended as a weekly staple of there family weekend life . This created a strong fan base which has grown over the years even though the evolution of sprint car racing has taken away allot of what use to be even more competitive racing in the central Pa area .Yes , I lived and grew up during this era of racing in Pa and it created the most loyal supportive , diehard fans I have ever seen even though the sprint car fans are great everywhere . So , I hope this answers your question to some extent and I think Iowa is somewhat similiar in connection to the Knoxville Nationals history in that it brought drivers in to race from all over the country .

I imagine this thread will eventually turn into the standard name calling and pissing contest. I think Ohio is more of a 410 hotbed than Iowa is anymore, but that's neither here nor there. In PA at least, 410s have remained viable and king because a team can set up base in the Harrisburg, Pa., area and race 70-80 times a yesr for solid purses without ever traveling outside a 100-150 mile radius if they choose to do so.

As much as many posters on here think that every team should race solely for glory and every team is a bottomless well of money to travel hudreds of miles, the reality is that the teams capable of paying just the fuel costs of such trips are few and far between.

Pretty much agree with you. Iowa is struggling with loss of jobs (I know... PA and OH are too, but Iowa didn't have a lot to start with) and it has a ripple effect with those losses thru the entire state's economy.

Pretty hard to go to the races (as a spectator) on a $10 a hour job ....let alone have a financial commitment to a race car as a owner on that same wage.

Sponsors (businesses) have to be looking at their expenditures with a hard eye and I can imagine where the first cuts will come ......and some have no doubt, already cut that part of their budgets.

This is not going to turn around overnight .... I fear for the weekly shows at ALL dirt tracks in the immediate future, some will survive ..... but I believe some won't.

S.H.S.

Heck quite a few times in 2010 Knoxville only had 22 410's in the pits, just enough for a full field. I think the one thing that hurts Knoxville there is just not very many 410 tracks close by that run on a weekly basis to build the 410 car counts up. There are a few tracks that run 410's in IL, ND and MO but there purse is significantly less than Knoxville.

As for PA there is just so much good paying weekly shows that guys don't have to travel and overall the car counts are steady.

I still think there needs to be some serious look at reducing cost of 410 racing but as long as guys have the mentality that they will spend whatever they have to to win nothing will change.

I suspected some of the OH folks might feel overlooked and in looking at some of the results there last year I probably should have included them as I initially thought about doing. Some real good points mentioned by several of you and I appreciate the PA history - seems like I'd once heard about some of what Thefansfan had shared. At this point, it may be difficult for 410 racing to truly re-establish itself in a region unless a new track or 2 open, or multiple existing tracks in a relatively close proximity join forces to support the class, race on complimentary nights (Friday/Saturday) and pay purses worthy of attracting 410 cars. I don't see that happening as most promoters currently are probably just focused on keeping afloat, much less having the time/resources for some altruistic endeavour.

Knoxville is having a car count problem the last few years and as WIsprinter said, it would be great if we had another quality 410 Friday night track within maybe 3 hours. Car owners would have another night to recoup some cost. As vande77 pointed out we have a very loyal and passionate 410 fan base. The crowds at Knoxville in 2010 are the best I ever remember and I've been going since 1977. Hopefully if the crowds continue to be good they could bump the 410 purse up to entice some 360 teams to run 410. Seems to me that is the best way to get our count back up. We have plenty of 360 teams but they don't put butts in seats, the 410's do. Honestly if it was my show to run I'd scatch the 360's and take 90% of that purse and put it on the 410. Then the other 10% to the 305 as the support class for the weekly shows and lock in some cost effective rules to keep 305's from getting out of hand the way 360's did.

Lefty, you are spot on. Actually the last night of the year there were 22 410's, 22 360's and 22 305's if my memory serves me correctly. it isn't just the 410's with a bit of a car count problem it is also the 360's.

One thing that Knoxville and the PA tracks have that keep them going is tradition. That simple. Knoxville has done some great things, but in my opinion they have done some things that have taken some of the tradition away. I think the thing that is hurting the Knoxville car count is simply the economy. There just isnt sponsors to be had like there use to be. And there are very few car owners, everybody foots the bill out of their own pocket. Back in the day you had guys with money paying the bills, but it has even got to expensive for them. I think the English Creek Speedway will start to have drivers come up and the 305's will prove to be a pretty important class(if it doesnt get to expensive). I have never been to PA, but I can tell ya there is nothing better than sitting at Knoxville on a hot summer night having a cold one watching races at the greatest track in the world! Well maybe sitting at Kinnick Stadium watching the Hawkeyes beat up on Penn St.

The increased purse at Knoxville won't help the car counts unless it is spread everywhere but the top 3 positions. Putting it in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place winnings won't help the local car count financially because of the increased cherry picker cars coming in and grabbing the pot. Granted, the fans like to see cars they don't normally get to watch race. But, in any business, it's the repeat business (the weekly cars) that makes you more money than the 1 time customers (the cherry pickers).

just my $.02 worth

Several good points made. I think Attica and Fremont came up with a great idea as I understand it. Combined point fund and two nights a week. PA has the population density and number of tracks to give cars multiple options without spending a fortune on travel. I think the IRA in WI has a pretty good idea in putting together a group of tracks on a more or less rotating schedule. And no question that all tracks need to improve the purse structure. As Ethel says, it has to go all the way down to the last car. Also not sure you can get rid of support classes, as they put fans in the seats, and bodies in the pit area. I suspect that if you look at pit pass revenue, and purses for the whole night, they won't be too far apart. And I would guess that if you look at the payout by class, the payout is tilted toward the 410's.

As for Knoxville, it would be nice if another track closer than Sioux Falls ran 410's in either Friday or Sunday, but they do have the option of racing at Husets on Sunday. Not sure how far the drive is from Knoxville, but a fair number of drivers do or have done it.

Even here in PA the car counts have been down....Williams Grove had a few nights where the car count was over 30 410's but for the most part most Friday night 23-25 ,And on Saturday night Port Royal struggled to get 20, Lincoln was about the only track to get 28 to 30 most weekends. The 358's on the other hand would get over 30 at all tracks and close to 40 at Lincoln.

Knoxville to Husets is ~ 5 hrs, a dang long drive if you have to get up and work on Monday like a lot of the weekly racers do.

Especially considering Huset's has a hard time ever getting the races over before 11pm no matter how early they start because of all the back gate promoting going on.

True ethel. They would have to beef up the purse on the bottom end to entice teams to move up. Maybe 10th on back in the A. Knoxville has a pretty good point fund top to bottom and also cars making 75% of the regular shows are eligable for more perks through the KRCO for helping with cost of safety equiptment and insurance. Somehow teams need incentive to put in a 410 to keep the car count up and fans coming back. Large crowds are the key and they come for the 410's.

Let me start by saying I am not criticizing Knoxville. The weekly purse there is amazing for the 410s. But if teams cannot afford to race for the $3,000 to win and $600 to start that Knoxville is paying now, how high do you think any track can pay to make weekly racing viable? All that aside, however, I am always of the opinion to support your local racers. While the Outlaws may come once or twice or three times a year, without the local racers, there is no track to attend weekly.

Problem is that the purse is already good on the bottom end. Hasn't helped car count however....

I know it was bantered around in the pit area 2 seasons ago to just have a "sprint car" class and do away with the 410 and 360 individual classes with $4000 to win and $1000 to start. Sounded like all that would happen was the Sprint Car Class would have 25 cars or so (not the 44 we averaged last year when combining the 360's and 410s').

Maybe the new motor rule will help entice some of the 360 teams to move up to 410s' (if they can be competitive with the new LS Engine).

Current payout for 410's @ Knoxville: A main (20 cars): 1. $3000 2. $2500 3. $2000 4. $1500 5. $1000 6. $900 7. $850 8. $800 9. $775 10. $750 11. $725 12. $700 13. $650 14. $645 15. $640 16. $625 17-20. $600