Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

So how did the meeting go last saturday for the MW305 group? Any rule changes, or did everything stay the same?

Our meeting was postponed because of the blizzard on Saturday. I'll let you know how it goes when we get it rescheduled.

thanks you in advance of the update. I hope they leave the rules alone, wet sump, no porting

I have heard from a very reliable source that Knoxville is considering going to a mandated intake gasket for the 305s. Because all the controversy on the porting of heads. Knoxville rules followed the Midwest 305 rules on intake matching, so I don't know what all the complaining is about. And for anyone complaining about the dry sump system, any smart engine builder can tell you that it takes 25 to 30 horse to run a dry sump and the rules don't say you have to run one so if you dont want to then don't but quit complaining about it.

If they are going to change the gasket rule, I wish they would hurry up. We are putting a motor together and it isn't fun (or money saving) to change perfectly good parts for last minute rule changes.......

I agree on the dry sump, if it isn't a HP advantage, what's the problem? If you can get a motor to last with a wet sump, good for you, we don't want to risk it.

Pink6, 25-30 horsepower to run a dry sump oil pump? WOW!!! In all seriousness a good 4-stage oil pump like what we use which is a Dailey Engineering pump or a Barnes pump takes about 4-5 horsepower to run. A lesser pump will take more to turn.

A good 4-stage pump will make about 15 more horsepower than a wet sump. A dry sump will lubricate better and your oil temperatures will be about 15-20 degrees cooler. The only downside is that they weigh more with the pump, lines, and oil tank.

If I were to build another one it would be dry sumped.

Wesmar, is that 15 HP gained on all motors (305/360/410), or just certain ones?

I like the idea of adding weight to run dry sump. Easy to tech, possible higher car count. How much weight? I don't know the answer to that. Lake Ozark Speedway in MO used 25lbs for the 2 day show in September. Wet sump won night 1, dry sump night 2.

Thanks for clearing that up Wesmar. Hey Pink 6 is Wesmar a smart enough engine builder for you or not? 88sprint werent you the one wanting to race at more tracks? If you are just putting the motor together now is the perfect time to make it MW 305 Legal.

i think the weight penalty is the way to go..dry sump extra 50 lbs...ported heads...extra 50 lbs..lets get all the 305 guys racing together ..afordable racing will keep rite on going and get stronger.

Bob Hildreth has already said that the 2011 MW engine rules are going to stay the same as 2010.

"Just to set the record straight... We are NOT changing the MidWest engine rules for 2011. We may have a vote on a "trial" period on the Knoxville rules, but the rules will be the same as in 2010. As a board member I feel that the rules that are in place are working well and should stay the same for 2011. I have talked to our President, Bob Hildreth, and he asked me to post that we will NOT be voting on adapting the Knoxville Raceway 305 engine rules. Knoxville will run their rules, we will run ours. Thanks for all the interest in the 305 class! Mark Aaron"

At the end of 2011 or beginning of 2012 will probably be the next time MW305 will vote on the rules because the rules stay in place for 2 years.

Yes wesmar is a good engine builder. And the dry sump deal, you have to understand if you use a four stage pump you are using one stage for vacuum in the motor, and that builds more horse power. A three stage pump you are not using it as a vacuum pump. Talked to an engine builder out of Des Moines engine builders, and they had customers who were going to put dry sumps on their motors and the motor builders advised against it because it takes horse power away. Why would you advise adding weight to cars with dry sumps because their is no horse power advantage. I just think it is a waste of time to complain about the dry sumps when people should be complaining about not inspetcing the cranks, and people running titanium valves, brake rotors, and ect.

I agree with the vacuum helping on a motor, but we run a 3 stage, make 4 stage illegal. Won't bother me any. I have saw 2 cars in the last year with wet sumps running a dry sump pump also, just for vacuum.

I am wanting them to let the dry sump cars add weight so that there will be more races and cars available. I don't think there is enough of an advantage to have to weigh more, but apparently others do. I want to see more cars at the track, that is it. If people are going to have fits about the dry sump, adding weight is an easy way to "slow them down" to make everyone happy. If every car at the track worried as much about setup as they do dry sumps, there would be a lot better racing going on. Like I have said, we run dry sump for durability, there was no performance gain in mind when we chose to go that route.

There are 2 dry sump systems on the classifieds right now for under $500, they aren't ruining the class whether people use it as an excuse or not. If you think a $500 check for parts is breaking the bank, how are you building the rest of the car? Racing is expensive, always will be. I think making rules that let us buy hand me downs from 360/410 guys is the way to go. Are you going to run a used wet sump pump from a local street stock swap meet for your Knoxville motor? I wouldn't. Would you use a 3 stage pump that came off an ASCS car? I am right now.

Mr. Wesmar,

You forgot to mention the safety factor involved.

There's quite a bit of difference in a dry sump vs a wet sump when a crank or rod lets go and creates a big hole in your oil pan at 100 MPH.

I've seen both over the years and know which setup I would want...CZ

Not that I am in any way an expert, but I have seen this happen over and over again in several different classes of race cars. You get a few people who want to change one thing this year, and another thing next year, and before you know it the cars are so expensive that it is really hard to bring in new blood. As people drop out, for whatever reason, you must have folks who are willing to buy in, and that should keep the cycle going. As you attract new racers to a new class, you will inevitably fill up the upper levels as people move on up the ladder. For proof you need look no further than 34 raceway in Burlington Iowa. Thier car count is on the rise!

My daughter and I started in the 305 sprint class in 2008. She REALLY wanted a sprint car after her karting experience. My choices were a sportsman midget or an entry level sprint car. If I would have had to spend the money required to race a 360, she would have ended up in the sportsman midget. This class is great now! Why muck with it?

And as you ALL know, rumors about so and so's car and it's dry sump and ported heads will make some feel that they can not win without them. You know the story about the race winners have the huge dollar motors! Anyone involved in the sport knows that this is not always the case, but it will scare off beginners.

Never hit stationary objects!

sprinter79 thank you. Just seems to me there are people out there that want to complain and change rules that are working. This is a entry level class and there is no place for ported heads even if they run a gasket. legal heads are very affordable. If a person or team wants to run ported heads and dry sumps they can run knoxville. I like the idea of rules being written and going by them, not changing to allow other to run because they built a engine outside of the rules. jmo

I am for dry sumps for two reasons, durability, availability. If you think they are only for performance gains, you need to do some research on what they are for. I don't think better oiling has ever won a race, but who knows. Reason 2, hand me downs from 360/410. They are easy to come by and can be bought worth the money for the durability gain you get from them. If you lose 1 motor from oil problems at a long track, it would have been cheaper to have bought a dry sump. Trust me, I know that one from experience. We could have bought a lot of dry sump systems for what a block, crank, cam, and rods cost....

I am for the ported heads for one reason. It takes out an issue of tech and cheating. I understand it can cost a lot of money to send heads off to "the guy" that makes them work best. They don't have to go to that guy though. But, if it is legal, no one is cheating, no more rumors of so and so cheating and getting away with it because he knows the right people. No more having to spend time at the tech line waiting to see if someone is legal. Then, using a tech mans judgement on whether they LOOK like they have been worked on. If you don't flow the head, there is no accurate way of checking, who is going to start bringing a flow bench to the track and tearing apart motors every night? "Looks" are completely a judgement call, yes there are some cases where you can tell by looking, but usually you can't. All sprintcars "look" fast sitting in the pits, but can you tell by looking at the car if it has any fuel in it? Like I said, looks don't mean jack......

I think there should be a casting number that everyone runs, but open after that. It doesn't matter the head, just make 1 head legal, easy tech. If you want to have porting rules, look how well that works for ASCS. Are you going to tell me the heads that come from Speedway Motors are the same heads that are on Johnson/Stewart/Bacon motors? I think not..... The rules say untouched, but you can ORDER heads that have LEGAL PORT WORK!!! Tell me how that makes sense........ Make rules that are easy to tech, hard to get around, and don't cause unecessary issues with longevity.

Tires - Durometer(hard) before the feature, competition between the 3 manufactures (American Racer, Hoosier, Goodyear) make tires cheaper

Heads - 1 legal cast number, open after that, easy tech

Cam - lift limit, a little more difficult to tech, but not impossible at the track

Compression - easy to check with a whistler

Weight - easy

Cubic inch - easy to check

Wing angle - easy to check while on the scales with an angle finder

If you want to go a little farther, gear rule - put everyone on a gear that will turn about 6000 RPM and see if the money helps any then. Easy to check by pulling the cover and see if the gear set matches up. This one would be tougher as everyone would have to have gear sets for each track that is raced at. Could cause issues with new cars, or out of town cars.

I know not everyone will agree with all of these, but it is just an example of EASY to tech rules. There would have to be more than this, but it should give an idea of what I am suggesting. Do I expect MW 305 or Knoxville to go to these, nope, not a chance. But it shows that this could be easier.

Ok, you make several really good points, however.....................

A decent wet sump pump from Speedway is roughly 60 to 80 dollars. Many, and I mean many stock car classes run a pump similiar to this one without much trouble. A wet sump pan can be had for roughly $80.00. Now these are not going to be the greatest high horsepower choices mind you, but for the budget racer they are great options.

To have rules that can allow for a low budget car, that can be capable of running at the front with a little due diligence, in a competitive class is a gift to those who wish to be involved at a grass roots level without breaking the bank. I don't care much about $500.00 dry sump systems. Most of the time you will end up with just about $500. in fittings and hose, let alone pumps and pans.

If someone wishes to build that motor and race at Knoxville more power to them. But please, leave the rules as they are for those of us who race at reasonably sized facilities.

As for porting, you may have a point. But there again, when the rules are opened up, and one or two cars really get it figured out, we are once again in a position of having to spend stupid money to go right along with them. Until the clubs tear everyone down to see who has what, I guess I am just not going to worry about it.

Never hit stationary objects!

I understand the cost difference between the pumps, but once again, I am looking at durability. I would rather spend 500 and not lose a motor than spend 200 and pick my parts up off the track. You said yourself that the wet sump you mentioned was not going to be the high HP choice, where does it say that dry sumps are only for high HP? Give me the name of 1 person who says a dry sump motor will win EVERY time against a wet sump....I have said previously that a wet sump motor won the first night of the 2 day Lake Ozark show, I ran 2nd with a dry sump. I guess the way I look at it is that my idea leaves it open for choice, the way it is now, people have to buy stuff they might not have. I have been running a 360 since 1999, we had a dry sump from our 360 stuff that we could use. If I build with a wet sump, I have to go buy a new pump, pan, etc. If you allow the choice, money can be saved. It was the same way here in Missouri when we started 305's, carbs only, no injection. Once again, we had injection and knew how to tune it. Instead we had to buy another truck load of stuff to put a carb on a sprintcar(and starters, but I won't get started on that stupid idea). I am trying to make it to where there won't be motors "built for Knoxville", there will just be 305 motors that can be raced at more than 1 track and be legal. Racing is not cheap and never will be.

Another one I thought of was roller cams. How many people have burned the lobes off a solid cam trying to break it in? If you have, do you still believe it was cheaper to not by a roller?

88 if you want to run dry sumps ,ported heads, and roller cams there is a class for that its called ASCS.

Therer already are engines that can be raced almost "everywhere" unfortunatly for you thats not what you built.

Head porting on a spec head leads to $5000 sets of heads in just a few years ask a competetive ASCS guy

Don't expect a series to change their rules to suit a few guys who built one track motors.

Somebody else has already said it .If you cant get a wet sump to live find a new engine guy.

And as for the flat tappets yes its still cheaper even with the occasional cam failure.

Have you seen the prices on the current roller stuff being used by the top teams in ASCS? 55mm roller cams, .904 lifters, and 3/8 or 7/16 manton and trend pushrods, $800 valve springs. even standard roller stuff isnt cheap and probably has a much higher failure rate than flat tappets even with the lobe wiping issues.

Sprint_99

Well said .... don't run such high valve spring pressures and a flat tappet will run for many races.

Wet sumps engines ran and lived for years in sprint cars before dry sumps showed up (just not at 500+ h.p. or more.)

Aluminium heads and blocks can be welded ..cast iron can't (economically) so if you wish to run aluminium ...do a ASCS or a 410.

Leave the 305's alone so a person can get by on the 'cheap' and feel they can compete .... it's like creeping socialism ... 'a tweak here...a tweak there... it's just a small thing' ...then you are dealing with $10K or more, professional engine builder units to be competitive in the 305 beginner class.

R.A.

S.H.S.