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Topic: Under the yellow line
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October 06, 2008 at
12:09:28 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: bullring on October 06 2008 at 09:35:54 AM
The funny thing is if Regan had held his line instead of going below the line to keep from wrecking Tony, he probably takes Tony out, causes a big wreck and goes on to win. Nascar is the only series I know where you can wreck a guy on the last lap for the win and not be penalized. Tony knew he got beat by the way he was throwing his gloves on the dash after the race. Oh yeah, I'm a Tony Stewart fan by the way.
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you must be too young to remember Dale Earnhardt Sr.
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October 06, 2008 at
12:58:04 PM
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Why is it that none of you have a problem with Tony protecting his position by "blocking"? Seems like you are all up in arms when a certain sprint car driver protects his line and position. Cup drivers are told where to move and who is behind them, where sprint car drivers have no idea until the car gets a nose in there or is close enough to hear the motor. At that point they know someone is trying to pass but not who, but it seems to upset a lot of you terribly! Just wondering why it is okay for Nascar but not for WoO. I too, felt that Tony knew he had been beat by the glove tossing but soon found out all was well. I also am puzzled why Regan was put so far back, seems like he should have been where he was before the infraction. There must be some sort of penalty besides not getting the win.
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October 06, 2008 at
01:03:35 PM
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Seem to remember 2 or 3 years ago, Tony got the yellow line penalty at Daytona, & yes there was a one lap penalty that went with it.
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October 06, 2008 at
01:22:11 PM
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Regan played the good guy role and didn't wreck Tony and probably the rest of the field when he had every right to do so. Blocking is bogus in any motor sport and Tony should be embarrassed about "winning" a race in which he crossed the line second. Nice sip of the Coke Zero tubby. Hell yeah I'll take mayo on my cold cut combo!
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October 06, 2008 at
02:33:07 PM
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It's simple - Tony was protecting the bottom of the legal racing surface. Regan barely had his front bumper under Tony's rear bumper - if at all - and clearly not up to the "accepted" rear quarter-panel which would constitute a "force" below the yellow line. Rather than lift slightly, get back in line and finish second - or try again to go around the outside, Regan continued with all four tires below the yellow line which is not the legal racing surface and improved his position which is not a legal pass.
I'd imagine Tony was pissed immediately afterwards because he figured the officials were going to screw him out of the win instead of doing the right thing and disqualifying Regan for making the illegal pass.
Just my $.02....
Phil Taylor
home-theater-systems-advice.com
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October 06, 2008 at
03:01:17 PM
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Let's face it there is a field of play on a race track and that yellow line represents out of bounds. Tony was acting like a defender trying to tackle and offensive player. He took him to the out of bounds line and held position, he's the leader of the race and that's his position. You have never been able to improve position below the yellow line.
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October 06, 2008 at
03:47:35 PM
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I respectfully disagree with the comments below my previous post. The only way Tony could win the race was to block and had the yellow line not been there he would have run him into the grass or into the wall on the outside. It was chicken stuff in my opinion. Smoke knew he made the wrong move by being in the lead so he did what he had to I guess. Also, there is no way Regan could have got out of the gas and finished second but he probably could have been third and he did make for an exciting finish. Well, at least he got sime face time for himself I guess.
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October 06, 2008 at
04:55:02 PM
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Whose Regan Smith? Anybody care?
Glad Tony won.
That whole race was awesome.
-Austin Rankin
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October 06, 2008 at
05:12:08 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: G3 Motorsports on October 06 2008 at 03:01:17 PM
Let's face it there is a field of play on a race track and that yellow line represents out of bounds. Tony was acting like a defender trying to tackle and offensive player. He took him to the out of bounds line and held position, he's the leader of the race and that's his position. You have never been able to improve position below the yellow line.
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ummm no. you could go under the yellow line before 2001.
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October 06, 2008 at
05:14:37 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubfan07 on October 06 2008 at 04:55:02 PM
Whose Regan Smith? Anybody care?
Glad Tony won.
That whole race was awesome.
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Regan Smith is the guy that beat Tony Stewart yesterday.
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October 06, 2008 at
05:59:33 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: bullring on October 06 2008 at 11:28:52 AM
Not sure what you're trying to say. If Regan Smith holds his line when Tony cuts across his nose, Tony most likely goes around and Smith goes on to win. Also, why is Regan Smith put back to 18th instead of 2nd or at worst 3rd?
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not trying to stick up for tony or be against smith here, just trying to explain my view of things as i understand the rule. and i am not knocking your views by any means, just to let you know. with that said i will say that smith does not have to hold his line. he can do wtf he wants.BUT.. he or no one else can IMPROVE their position. in my opinion of the rule, and in my recolection of how it has been inforced in the past you can drop below the line to avoid contact or crashing but that does not mean you can improve your position in doing so. smith could have blended back in behind tony and tried again but he did not. he finished off the pass. it has happened many times at the tracks where this rule is used and drivers have had to go below the line to avoid crashing and came back up on the track without improving their position and no penalty was called. i know since it was the last lap and all that some are going to say things should be different. if and i say IF nascar allowed for that, and some say they did, then i would say maybe things should be different. but just going by the rule as i would normally interpret it and the way i understand it would normally be enforced, smith dove under tony to pass him and tony blocked him. that is ok by any of the standards those guys race under. if there was a wall there, smith would not have ducked under and let tony squeeze him into it. by the way smith was still just at tonys rear bumper, but if smith was ALONGSIDE tony when he squeezed him i believe nascar would have called forcing on tony and given smith the win.just because you have a run and someone blocks you is not interpreted in my opinion as being forced. again i am just saying what my opinion is and what i have seen nascar do in relation to this rule and their past interpretation of things. nascar enforced the rule consistant to what they have ruled in the past under the same curcumstances in my opinion. not everyone is going to be happy. i guess i should go to some of the nascar sites and see what is being said!
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October 06, 2008 at
06:05:35 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: filtalr on October 06 2008 at 02:33:07 PM
It's simple - Tony was protecting the bottom of the legal racing surface. Regan barely had his front bumper under Tony's rear bumper - if at all - and clearly not up to the "accepted" rear quarter-panel which would constitute a "force" below the yellow line. Rather than lift slightly, get back in line and finish second - or try again to go around the outside, Regan continued with all four tires below the yellow line which is not the legal racing surface and improved his position which is not a legal pass.
I'd imagine Tony was pissed immediately afterwards because he figured the officials were going to screw him out of the win instead of doing the right thing and disqualifying Regan for making the illegal pass.
Just my $.02....
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a perfect expliation! tony may have not know imediatly that smith passed under the line. making your car WIDE on the last lap is an accepted means of racing for those guys.remember dale sr on the last couple of laps of the 01 daytona 500 when he was weaving all over the track to protect michael and jr.
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October 06, 2008 at
06:08:56 PM
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if you go off of the racing surface in woo and improve your position you are set back. same with this rule nascar has at dega.
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October 06, 2008 at
07:13:44 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: team wright-one on October 06 2008 at 05:59:33 PM
not trying to stick up for tony or be against smith here, just trying to explain my view of things as i understand the rule. and i am not knocking your views by any means, just to let you know. with that said i will say that smith does not have to hold his line. he can do wtf he wants.BUT.. he or no one else can IMPROVE their position. in my opinion of the rule, and in my recolection of how it has been inforced in the past you can drop below the line to avoid contact or crashing but that does not mean you can improve your position in doing so. smith could have blended back in behind tony and tried again but he did not. he finished off the pass. it has happened many times at the tracks where this rule is used and drivers have had to go below the line to avoid crashing and came back up on the track without improving their position and no penalty was called. i know since it was the last lap and all that some are going to say things should be different. if and i say IF nascar allowed for that, and some say they did, then i would say maybe things should be different. but just going by the rule as i would normally interpret it and the way i understand it would normally be enforced, smith dove under tony to pass him and tony blocked him. that is ok by any of the standards those guys race under. if there was a wall there, smith would not have ducked under and let tony squeeze him into it. by the way smith was still just at tonys rear bumper, but if smith was ALONGSIDE tony when he squeezed him i believe nascar would have called forcing on tony and given smith the win.just because you have a run and someone blocks you is not interpreted in my opinion as being forced. again i am just saying what my opinion is and what i have seen nascar do in relation to this rule and their past interpretation of things. nascar enforced the rule consistant to what they have ruled in the past under the same curcumstances in my opinion. not everyone is going to be happy. i guess i should go to some of the nascar sites and see what is being said!
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Okay now I see where you're coming from. But what I meant was if Smith doesn't move below the yellow line when Tony comes down I think Tony spins and possibly we have a big wreck. If Smith crosses the line first he gets the win even after taking out the leader. Nascar is the only series I know where you can intentionally block and/or also punt the leader out of the lead and still keep your spot.
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October 06, 2008 at
07:38:19 PM
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I am with the person who said put a wall around the bottom. End of problem. Actually it does not even have to be a wall. Just a big curb. I can't beleive this is still a discussion. Smith went below the line. The rule says you can not improve your position by going below the line. Whether you agree with it or not it is the rule. There is no rule against blocking. I guess if you don't like Tony then you would not be happy with any outcome that has him doing good. What he did was... wait I'll think of the word... it was... I think it is.... It is called winning. Yes I am a Tony Stewart fan, yes I was a Dale Sr. fan. If the positions were reversed I can gaurantee you Tony would not have went below the line. Smith may have went for a ride but Tony would not have paid that penalty twice.
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October 06, 2008 at
07:43:21 PM
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I have watched that last part part of the race "frame by frame" at least ten times. While I originally thought Smith had a bumper inside of Stewart when he started coming down, I now believe otherwise. At the point where Smith's cars goes over the yellow line, Tony is over half way down inside of the white lane marker. If you follow the frame by frame sequence and then also watch the second camera replay later in the telecast, the lane appears to be about 8 feet wide. This would make it impossible for Smith to have had a nose inside of Stewart before he crossed the yellow line.
It's really difficult to tell with the first camera angle. So you need to look at the frame by frame sequence to see how wide the lanes are and then look at the second camera angle (which plays just after the actual finish) and it looks different. Keep in mind this all takes place in a couple hundreths of a second.
At least it looks different than what I thought I saw in at full speed yesterday. As much as I still would have liked to see Regan win that race, I now believe he made the pass outside of the yellow line.
When you tie that in with the instructions from the driver's meeting, it seems NASCAR made the right call. Andy Petree was wrong when he suggested the last lap rule was different than the race rule. Dale Jarrett was right on that point.
JMS ProPhoto
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October 06, 2008 at
08:25:33 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: bullring on October 06 2008 at 07:13:44 PM
Okay now I see where you're coming from. But what I meant was if Smith doesn't move below the yellow line when Tony comes down I think Tony spins and possibly we have a big wreck. If Smith crosses the line first he gets the win even after taking out the leader. Nascar is the only series I know where you can intentionally block and/or also punt the leader out of the lead and still keep your spot.
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if someone pulls a slide job in a sprinter and the person getting slid stays on the gas and contunues to try to race around the guy doing the sliding and gets put in the wall because of it a lot of us would say it was his own fault he crashed. isn't the guy doing the sliding in fact blocking the guy who he is sliding? thank you for at least seeing my point. on your comment about smith moving below the line to avoid spinning tony, no one is saying that can't be done. you just can't pass while you are doing it. again i will bring up the idea of the line being a wall. if the line was a wall, smith would not have dropped down or put himself in a position to get hit or run into the wall. and if the line was the wall and smith was alongside tony and tony turn down on him and stuffed him in the wall that would be the same as forcing. tony was coming down as smith was trying to go under him. in that sport useing the front bumper to win or useing your rear bumper to win is accepted racing. people can say what they want but in nascar "rubb'in is rac'in". if nascar did in fact give different instructions in the drivers meeting and left a grey area that is a bad deal. they have now cleared that up though with this call.
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October 06, 2008 at
08:34:00 PM
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This message was edited on
October 06, 2008 at
08:37:58 PM by team wright-one
Reply to:
Posted By: racephoto on October 06 2008 at 07:43:21 PM
I have watched that last part part of the race "frame by frame" at least ten times. While I originally thought Smith had a bumper inside of Stewart when he started coming down, I now believe otherwise. At the point where Smith's cars goes over the yellow line, Tony is over half way down inside of the white lane marker. If you follow the frame by frame sequence and then also watch the second camera replay later in the telecast, the lane appears to be about 8 feet wide. This would make it impossible for Smith to have had a nose inside of Stewart before he crossed the yellow line.
It's really difficult to tell with the first camera angle. So you need to look at the frame by frame sequence to see how wide the lanes are and then look at the second camera angle (which plays just after the actual finish) and it looks different. Keep in mind this all takes place in a couple hundreths of a second.
At least it looks different than what I thought I saw in at full speed yesterday. As much as I still would have liked to see Regan win that race, I now believe he made the pass outside of the yellow line.
When you tie that in with the instructions from the driver's meeting, it seems NASCAR made the right call. Andy Petree was wrong when he suggested the last lap rule was different than the race rule. Dale Jarrett was right on that point.
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if you are saying you think that smith was below the line before he made contact with tony i agree. i tried to debate that with a friend from the you tube video, but not frame by frame. i am glad you brought it up as i thought it was not worth trying to debate here. if tony left smith a half a lane, that meant smith had to go half a lane below the line to pass. smith was trying to fit his car into a lane half the size he needed. if it would have been a wall he would have crashed himself before he could get past tony.
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October 06, 2008 at
08:42:05 PM
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Here's my zwei pfennig.
NASCAR's rule book isn't published, so who is to say WHAT the rule is? Were any of you in the driver's meeting? Do any of you have a copy of the rules?
Regan said something like "I thought they said we could pass below the yellow line on the last lap". One of the commentators said something similar to "I thought all of the rules went out the window on the last lap".
If....and I said IF there was no rule specific to the last lap which superceded the other rule, and IF the other rule states that you cannot improve your position under the yellow line, then Regan made an illegal pass.
Quite frankly, I like filtalr's post. It works for me.
As for some people's suggestion of putting an actual wall or curb at the bottom, can you imagine the complete mayhem that would cause at 'Dega? We see plenty of carnage there every race and we need another obstacle such as that to add to it??
I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks
anywhere.
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October 07, 2008 at
07:02:30 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Rogue-9 on October 06 2008 at 05:12:08 PM
ummm no. you could go under the yellow line before 2001.
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Last time I checked it's 2008 and the rules and penalties have been the same for the past 7 years. Tony was the first and even Jimmy Spencer got pulled out of victory lane, passing below the yellow line is a pass through penalty if you don't give the spot back.
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