Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I'm not at all in tune with the charter system, so I have no idea. 

Provisionals are a no-brainer.  1.  It takes care of the drivers who sign on to drive your entire series---scratch each others backs   2.  It assures if I go to a track as a fan, or take my son/daughter, my, or their favorite driver in that series is in the show.  

People get all worked up about provisionals.  However, they can't name all of the instances a provisional starter won a race.  Bet you can count em on one hand.  

I was going to say that provisionals are no big deal to me as I can't recall anybody using a provisional and doing much. Are there drivers who have won using provisionals?

I'm sure it's probably happened but since drivers who take provisionals start in the back they're not likely to win a WoO race.    It's more about salvaging some points out of a bad night if you can.    

Several years ago, I recall Damion Gardner getting a provisional at Gas City.  He came VERY close to winning the show, only to wreck out of second place, trying to make a pass for the lead.  In typical Demon style, he wasn't too upset, and to be honest, I can't remember who won. . . . 

www.manvelmotorsports.com

Since the driver taking the provisional is usually no slouch, he's very likely to be in anybody's way. I'm OK with it.

Each series that uses provisionals has a set of rules regarding the provisionals.   As others stated that you have to be a full time member of the series to be able to use a provisional.   The rules are not overly complex, but they are detailed.  You get x number of provisionals for the first x months.   After that you get y provisionals until mid year, and then you get z provisionals till year end.   

Sometimes you will also hear about promoters provisionals.   At some tracks with a 410 program, the promoter can add a local team if a national team uses a provisional.    At a late model race that is co-promoted under different sanctions, you can multiple sanctions give out provisionals which can add many cars to the race.

The very best example of why people like provisionals happened this year with Kyle Larson at a mid week show.   Kyle has at least one conflict with the mid week series and is not a full time member of the series.   He was involved in a wreck in his heat race on the first lap and finished last.    He started near the back of the C main.   There was a large field of cars on a juiced up track and he did not finish in a transfer spot.   So, High Limit's number one mid week draw ran zero laps in his heat race, and came in 3rd in the C main and that was all the time he was on the track.   

how close nascar is to reaching an agreement with the charter owners seems to depend on who you ask.  i'm not sure if this will result in any sort of work stoppage/strike.  there has always been disagreement about revenue sharing.

i'm no expert in charters but they're essentially like a sports franchise.  you can't just create your own nfl team out of thin air.  you could create a race team...but you'll miss out on the benefits of a charter team like guaranteed starting spots in the races.  the big draw is how valuable they've become...upwards of $40-50 million i believe.  shr sold one of theirs and $30 million was called a steal.  dale jr. has floated starting a cup team and he's saying he is priced out right now despite having money to throw around.

Fred Rahmer won a WoO at Williams Grove in 2010 from 24h starting spot. Not quite a provisional, but pretty incredible to see.

Slightly off topic, but I recall a WoO race at Huset's where T-Mac (a local @ the time) didn't make the A-main, but went to WoO officials and pointed out a little known rule to get a provisional. 

I remember JG explaining the specifics of this particular rule to the crowd as officials and T-Mac ended a huddle in the infield.  It turns out (at least at this time) that if WoO raced your track on on a regular points night for your 410 class, a provisional could be used by the locals and as T-Mac was leading the local points he took it.  First time and maybe the only time I've ever seen a non-WoO driver get a provisional at a WoO event.

I’ve often wondered if this “rule” still exists. 

Thanx,
Bruce

"support your local track and stay positive"

Todd Shaffer took one at Grove National several years ago after Steve Kinser ran over him in the heat or b then having trouble in the other. He then got chopped and crashed out of the A going for third with several laps to go I think in a nonstop or very few cautions race. He then borrowed a car to run a makeup feature.

I don't recall this particular instance, but for some reason, I feel like this was something discussed in the not so distant past.  (Time flies---it could have been 20 years ago)   I know some tracks used to (Or maybe still do?) have a promoter's provisional?  Is this what TMAC possibly used?  

Most times, provisional starters are either off the pace, or in a repaired/backup car anyways, so it is rarely a story.  I always found it humorous when people whined about someone getting a provisional.  They're not going to be a factor, so WHO CARES? 

Yes.  Sometimes WoO allows 2 provisionals and the local track allows 2 provisionals.    Then you end up with 28 cars starting a feature.    On a short, dusty track things can get pretty crowded.   That’s one of the criticisms that provisionals receive.

And if they work their way from 25th to 16th they win $50

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

It was 2009. Actually Steve spun out directly in front of him and he nailed him. Ruined a brand new car that was brought out that night. Brought out the back up car and drove up through and got taken out by Pat Cannon. He could've won that race. He was passing the best in the business with absolutely zero effort. The for the make up, they took the last wing they had that wasn't bent and put it on Aaron Ott's car to secure the track championship.

45th pays somehing like $125. 25th pays $1200 on regular 2 day show.  Not sure what kind of show this is.

Thanx,
Bruce

"support your local track and stay positive"

They picked up points, which may be an issue at the end of the season

Their sponsors got more exposure than if the car was in the trailer.

Their fans got to see them in the feature race.

They got track time at Knoxville which may come in handy in August.

They got to race instead of watch, and they like to race.

As for charters.  The idea of them is awesome in my opinion.  One of the most valuable investments is a professional sporting franchise.  They are GUARANTEED to go up in value which is something I don't think you can say with anything else.  If you're not aware (not trying to sound rude, but many people probably don't know), the idea is that you have something of value when you decide to leave the sport, hence hopefully giving more people a reason to join the sport.  The way it was a few years ago in NASCAR, if you wanted to quit, the only value you got back was selling your outdated equipment and buildings for pennies on the dollar.  However Tony Stewart and Gene Haas are leaving NASCAR and have four charters which are worth about $25 million a piece so on top of selling their outdated equipment they will also be able to split $100 million. 

A few things I wasn't aware of with NASCAR's charter system that I've just found out in the last few months that are interesting to me, The charter doesn't really belong to you, NASCAR can take it away for various reasons like, if you're not in the top 35 in points for two or three years in a row, when the new TV deal comes out, or you don't attempt all the races, or for any other reason they see fit.  There was a good interview with Kelly Earnhardt who went through all of this, since they are looking at possibly buying a charter for NASCAR.  The thing I found most interesting is, if I understood everything right.  When you buy a business you generally pay 8 times the yearly profits.  So for example, if you have a business that makes $1,000 per year your business would be worth $8,000 if you were to sell it.  But the issue they have is that no teams are making money in NASCAR.  So how does it make any financial sense for them to spend $25 million to buy a business that is losing money?  She said the money to get a charter isn't the issue, they have investors ready, she also said they have a good path to be successful in the cup series based on their connections and how they've run their xfinity team, but why would you spend $25 million to lose money?  And to top it all off NASCAR says they can't guarantee what will happen to charters with the next TV deal.  So, I guess at this point it appears that charters are hurting NASCAR teams as far as bringing in new owners.  

As for it in the High Limit series?  It's a crapshoot.  The people running the series now might look brilliant if things work out.  But if the High Limit goes under, those charters will be about as valuable as the stock people own in the Green Bay Packers.

I don't have a crystal ball but these are my opinions.

NASCAR charters are not worthless.  Quite the contrary.  A decision hasn't been made completely yet but the unknown makes it a pretty good gamble, if I were sitting on a 7 or 8 figure bank account, I would honestly look into purchasing one.  There is WAY more buyers than sellers, so there will be a profit.  Say what you want about NAPCAR or NASCRAP, anyway you look at it, it's the most popular racing series in the U.S. right now and has been for many years.  Reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother in May of 2020 when I was looking at a new house.  He told me "You're a fool for thinking about buying a new house with Covid and everything else going on.  Potentialy you could buy this house and in five years it could be worth half as much because jobs will be hard to come by and there's no guarantee you or anyone else will have a job and then you could be homeless".  He chose to continue renting, I chose to buy the new house at the cheap interest rate.  Even though in May of 2020 nobody knew what was going on, four years later, my house is worth 60% more than it was when I purchased it (don't get excited, my real estate taxes reflect that and if I were to sell now, I'm just going to pay that much more for a different house) and his rent has gone up 30% and he has no idea how he could buy a house in this town now.  Yes it was a gamble but I don't even think it was that risky of a gamble.  Just like a NASCAR charter.

Either High Limit or WOO IS GOING AWAY, at some point.  Both of them have good ideas so my hope is this ends up in some kind of merger and not one party going bankrupt.  What I know is this, I don't believe there's enough SUSTAINABLE full time sprint car teams for two national touring series.  So in my opinion, one of them is going away.

I personally haven't been on either end of buying or selling a business so I'm not going to comment other than to say, isn't that the way it is with purchasing anything?  Go buy a classic car and the seller is going to tell you how rare it is, well the buyer is going to point out how much rust it has.  Anything with a negotiation, this is how it will go.

I can't put a number on the right number of charters.  What I can say is this.  It should be a number about 80-90% of what that number of sustainable full time teams is.  If you have more charters available than the number of SUSTAINABLE full time teams are, the charters are worthless.  If you have too few charters compared to SUSTAINABLE full time teams, the prices will get out of hand and they will find something else to do, like what's going on in NASCAR right now

Again these are just my opinions.

Hardon wrote "Either High Limit or WOO IS GOING AWAY, at some point.  Both of them have good ideas so my hope is this ends up in some kind of merger and not one party going bankrupt.  What I know is this, I don't believe there's enough SUSTAINABLE full time sprint car teams for two national touring series.  So in my opinion, one of them is going away."

I respecfully disagree, neither will go away they are both thriving and they both have very good car counts, 410 sprint car racing is thriving again across the country even in this high inflation economy we are in. The sport is getting more and more popular and with High Limit coming online partnerd with Flo, streaming making both series accessible to many that can't attend races in person. Also the Outlaws have raised their purses as well since the advent of the High Limit Series. They can and will co exist, that is my take on it for what I'm seeing so far....

The older I get the faster I was

I would have loved to watch McFadden get an alternate for Kaleb Johnson last night from an entertainment standpoint, but given the event has a fixed points format I don't see how it's feasible - the only thing that really would make sense is McFadden still earns his B-Main points and just has the extra track time. Seems easier to just start 23 as they did.