Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

True or False?

"Using an unlimited engine rule, the professional engine builder can build a 850-1000 horsepower sprint car engine for less money than today's good 360 sprint car engine".

If you believe that statement to be False, please explain why.

If you believe that statement to be True, should sprint car racing associations consider using that rule?

1. Any Engine Displacement or Configuration
2. Any Fuel (Including Nitromethane and or Nitrous Oxide)
3. Any Aspiration

With appreciation,
Don

I believe there is alot more to this question? such as what type or "aid in Oxygen " you are providing for the mill , I dont remember any sprint series (popularly know today )accepting altenate fuels other than methenol or (% of pure methenol) a cast block 360 will proubly produce some staggering numbers on Nitro , trouble is, stopping at lap 15 to have John Forces crew do a teardown and freshen for another 15 laps ,

I strongly believe a injected, open 360, could hammer out well over 800hp ,depending on a exotic fuel or addition of oxygen molecules , truth to the matter is engine builders are only playing by the guidelines set forth , some customers are concerned with the dependibility of a $40,000 mill and cant have Hp and dependibility, without the loss of one or the other . JMO

I believe they CAN build and 850-1000 hp motor cheaper under an open engine rules package, but I don't belive that they WILL. They will R & D to find ways to make more horsepower and lighter engines, further push that envelope between HP and reliability to drive up the cost of competing.

My personal thought is to let engine development do what it wants for power (keep rules around to prohibit extremely lightweight parts) but to take away all the advantage that more ponies gives you. Unhook the racecars and let an extremely talented driver pushing the throttle on a $15,000 motor drive around an average driver wheeling an $80,000 powerplant.

Don, I realize you think you have the answer to saving the sport, but your logic has a serious flaw; what racer is willing to throw out the current motor rules when he has 1-5 360's or 410's valued at $10,000-$30,000 each?

You open up the rules, and these engines become obsolete and seriously de-valued. That's a hit in the wallet that no one would be willing to take. Heck, we had three 305 groups in Iowa that can't get on the same page for rules because no one wants to be holding the the set of heads that were not the chosen head for all the groups. And we're taliking a $1000 set of heads at the most. You want guys to forget they have $30 grand wrapped up in a motor and then go buy a new one? NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

This is why it has to be done with:

Harder tires

Narrower tires

Less sideboard and/or wing surface area

No cockpit control devices

Do the above mentioned things and the current engines will have more power than most guys could get to the ground at most tracks.

Good day sir.

www.Numbersusa.com  

I think a good class would be a 410 class modeled closely after the 305 class--production heads,flat top pistons-should be able to run about like a 360 for the price of a 305-what do you think?

Simple answer.. let them run either !!!

$40K 410... no rules

or $20K 600 with comprression and rpm rules..

Make it a phase in period over 5 years...problem solved !

the most expensive part of almost all racing engines is the labor and profit of the engine builders, I would not be afraid to bet that all the parts for a top 410 engine and average machine shop labor the engine could be assembled for less than 25K but if you really want it done as well as possible, pay Garte, wesmar, ott or many other top quality professionals who have their tricks and excellent skills, no matter whithout engine rules, it would just still cost what those top teams will spend, many years ago the top 410 engines ran less horsepower, lower compression and they lasted as long as current top 360 motors,

To Quote Joe Scalzo from his new book~ CITY OF SPEED.

“A twenty-first-century Shaver is a 410-cubic-inch, 13:1-compression, fuel-burning, 860-horsepower jack-hammer of a sprint car mill made out of steel, aluminum, rubber, Teflon, magnesium, bronze, cork, and asbestos. And all of its choice raw guts represent the most up-to-the-instant custom speed hardware coming out of the classic L.A. speed houses—Donovan, Moroso, Cosworth, Manley, Brodex, Mondello, Iskenderian, Brownfield, Carillo.”
“Assembling one of the monsters takes 60 man-hours, with a Shaver Specialties staff of 10, including Ronnie Shaver, the guru, performing the heavy lifting. When purchasing a Shaver, bring along a cashier’s check in the amount of $44,000.”

Lets say 60 man-hours at $35.00 an hour, that equals $2100.00. I think you will find that most of the cost is in low-margin parts, not in labor and profit for the builder.

I'm not talking World of Outlaws here,I'm talking local Sat.night racing.If you look at the 305 class,it is growing every year,why,-because it's affordable and a guy can be competitive with an engine he put together himself.The problem is when these guys want to move up,they are faced with the hi-dollar 360 or 410 classes.We need to get back to our roots as far as engines and you will see car counts go up.It can be done,and should be done.

The root that first attracted me to sprint car racing was that the car’s always had more horsepower then they could get to the ground.

new-parts, just want to clarify a few points in your post.  Moroso is in Connecticut, Brodix is in Arkansas, Manley is in New Jersey.

Shaver gets $46,000 for a complete 410.  Hourly rates range from $70.00 - $80.00 an hour AND just like myself the only thing heavy Ron lifts is his fatass out of his office chair to the dinner table.........LMAO!!

Sorry, I forgot to give that year-old quote credit to Joe Scalzo, I fixed that.

The $70.00-$80.00 an hour, shop rate or what you pay for labor?

Most of the cost is not in low-margin parts?

Just tell me honestly, that you with inherited nitro running thru your veins, couldn’t build an unlimited engine economically and I’ll jump on the 360 bandwagon.

With Respect,
Don

I'm saying that most high end engine shops charge customers roughly 70.00-80.00 per hour.

We could more than likely could build an unlimited "economical" 360 IF we were to compromise our companies integrity by using Chinese cranks and rods, i.e. Scat and Eagle, as well as other "cheaply" manufactured parts.  But like us as well as the other engine builders we choose to stick to American made products and the companies that make them, i.e. Crower, CP and JE pistons, Crane and Huggins cams, Dart - Donovan - Brodix blocks, Brodix and All-Pro heads, Kinsler-Hilborn-and Engler injectors, etc...... you get the jist.

If somebody out there in keyboard land wants to finance an "economically" built open 360 with cheaper or less quality parts, I'd consider building it.................. and as long as were talking about this money issue and labor charges, no I won't do it for free either!  I'll do it on the low end and only charge $70.00 an hour.  If your gonna make it as realistic as possible then were going to do it to the T.

Talking about an economical unlimited engine here, not a unlimited economical 360 engine

Dont try talking economical rational thinking with one of these major engine builders new parts.They put out engines with the highest quality everything,but funny thing is they still blow up all the time.

Guess I misunderstood when you said you would jump on the 360 bandwagon I assumed you meant building an economical 360.

Hey if those guys want an engine with a short fuse, then they'll get an engine with a short fuse. As far as when an engine leaves a shop and the teams get them, it's out of the engine builders control as to how they fuel them which leads to burnt pistons and how they gear them which equates to how many rpm's they turn that leads into breaking these "high quality" parts. No matter what or how engine builders do to prevent things from happening to their product, there are always ways to break them.

But then again what do we know, we only do this as well as all the other engine builders for a living so that we can be just a "very small part" of the equation that puts on a show for sprint car fans so that you guys and gals can congregate and drink your "dirtybeer" and talk about the evening's racing festivities.

Well said!!! Just what I've been thinking.

In my Opinion, the use of quality (american or equaly compairable)parts in a motor is a absolute must , Ive run some pretty shadey overseas stuff and have gotten exactly what I paid for, Id rather run some American refurbished (cycled) parts than go with the overseas model, now I do have both, and my motor with the american bottom end is by far "in a class of its own" , maybe im not compairing apples to apples here, but again this is just my observation and personal testimonial, and, for credibility here , im as a cheap blue collar racer as there is !

As for labor costs , everbody has a way of putting the turkey on the table, try run your vehical on the price of botteled water ? you think gallons of dead dinasours are expensive ? whew!

Agreed to tighten up the competiton (possibly)would be loosening up the car, when the dominant driver prevails week after week, whats not to say we will end up right where we are now? Joe driver will say, Q : why are you losing? "if I had more power I could catch him" very few drivers will admit someone is just better . JMO

In closing , I love it just the way it is , maybe top 410 teams are fantasy land for me ! with out thier inovation and high cost of pushing the limit, I wouldnt know what is nessassary to be competitive on a local level, some of this crap is voodoo , just find what really does work and the best bang for the buck.

The major engine builders are on a never ending quest to wring more and more power out of thier power plants.My name might not be Wesmar,but I do know that the more power you squeeze out of an engine,the more of a time bomb it will be.This is fine for the WoO teams that can afford it,but the cost of these engines for the local racer doesn't work.I have no doubt that Wesmar builds a very fine hi-hp engine-but it also cost big bucks.The reason I bring the 305's engine up,is that guys are running these engines all season{and then some}-I think the time is right for a larger cube engine patterned after the 305,it should be able to make good reliable hp and be affordable as well. All race engines will blow,the difference is what it cost to replace them.