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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Topic: pipeline
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hiroshimacarp
April 19, 2021 at 06:20:15 PM
Joined: 10/06/2018
Posts: 310
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i posted last week about what might have been learned in virginia about taking care of tires and whether it might help some of them in the future.  it got me thinking what a lot of these drivers aspire to be...especially the younger guys.  there's nothing wrong with just wanting to go race or wanting to be the next donny schatz...but do they want to be in nascar?  indycar?  is it a mix?

i always thought indycar needed to go back to road courses.  going to high speed ovals got a lot of guys hurt.  after watching their race yesterday...i realized how much more interesting it would be if i was watching sprint car drivers that moved up through the ranks.  that doesn't happen these days.  a majority of the nascar talent isn't coming from dirt either. there is so much dirt track talent and i'd love to see them move up to bigger things.  it seems like the pathways are a bit limited right now.

just curious about other thoughts with this.  



Murphy
April 19, 2021 at 09:21:53 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: hiroshimacarp on April 19 2021 at 06:20:15 PM

i posted last week about what might have been learned in virginia about taking care of tires and whether it might help some of them in the future.  it got me thinking what a lot of these drivers aspire to be...especially the younger guys.  there's nothing wrong with just wanting to go race or wanting to be the next donny schatz...but do they want to be in nascar?  indycar?  is it a mix?

i always thought indycar needed to go back to road courses.  going to high speed ovals got a lot of guys hurt.  after watching their race yesterday...i realized how much more interesting it would be if i was watching sprint car drivers that moved up through the ranks.  that doesn't happen these days.  a majority of the nascar talent isn't coming from dirt either. there is so much dirt track talent and i'd love to see them move up to bigger things.  it seems like the pathways are a bit limited right now.

just curious about other thoughts with this.  



     For what it's worth, I don't see the WoO as a road to NASCAR. The most successful WoO racer to go NASCAR was Dave Blaney. Out of 473 races, it looks like he had 62 top 10's and 1 win in one of the lower series.



3togo
April 20, 2021 at 05:00:10 AM
Joined: 06/14/2016
Posts: 492
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Posted By: Murphy on April 19 2021 at 09:21:53 PM

     For what it's worth, I don't see the WoO as a road to NASCAR. The most successful WoO racer to go NASCAR was Dave Blaney. Out of 473 races, it looks like he had 62 top 10's and 1 win in one of the lower series.



Yeah, Jeff Gordon had a pretty average career!!!



alum.427
April 20, 2021 at 05:25:27 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 1599
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There limited because of the guys that come up with dollars. Indy is loaded with nobodies that bring sponsorship money. Nascrap is heading down that same path, just look at the stands. The fans have no one to relate to,  Larson coming back is to little to late.  The win on Sunday buy on Monday fans are long gone. There's no difference between brands anymore, sure the motor, but beside that there all cookie cutter cars. You've had some great open wheel talent that never got the chance. In fact, there has been some really good dirt racers period that never got the opportunity to go nascrap racing. If you look at the guys that made it to the big leagues the 1 thing they all had in common, they were easy on tires and qualified well. Those are the guys that got that chance and did well. There are guys out there that could probably do good in the land of watch what you say and do and follow there guidelines. There are guys out there that told them to stick there rules also. Jack Hewitt comes to mind.



Murphy
April 20, 2021 at 07:10:24 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: 3togo on April 20 2021 at 05:00:10 AM

Yeah, Jeff Gordon had a pretty average career!!!



    OK, maybe I'm not real familiar with Gordon's World of Outlaws career.



StanM
MyResults MyPressRelease
April 20, 2021 at 08:24:02 AM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 5548
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Keep in mind that when we look at the NASCAR races on tv this season that most places are still limiting crowds.  


Stan Meissner

dsc1600
April 20, 2021 at 09:01:33 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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Larson and Bell came up the winged sprint route. They "proved" their skill on the USAC midget tour to the powers that be, but their roots are in winged sprints. 

Personally, I could care less if any guys move up. I don't consider it much of a move up other than the money. I would like dirt racing to continue to grow so that NASCAR opportunities aren't as enticing. I'm glad Steve, Sammy and Wolfgang spent almost all of their careers in dirt racing. I completely understand the desire, but NASCAR racing stinks. 



armyduke
April 20, 2021 at 09:40:37 AM
Joined: 08/12/2005
Posts: 784
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Posted By: Murphy on April 20 2021 at 07:10:24 AM

    OK, maybe I'm not real familiar with Gordon's World of Outlaws career.



True that; Gordon, Stewart, Edwards, Leffler, Newman, Schraeder, Kahne, Stenhouse, Larson, Bell all got their shots in NASCAR based off their USAC time. Yes some/most of them raced Winged Sprints some also, but none of them ever ran WoO any significant amount prior to NASCAR days. Even Bell went from USAC midget title to K&N cars for Kyle Busch. Steve Kinser and Sammy got to give it a shot in NASCAR from WoO. Kraig Kinser a couple of years in Trucks from WoO. Tyler Walker from winged sprints to trucks. Rico part time truck ride for a minute. Dave Blaney really is the only one to parlay a WoO resume to NASCAR many year ride. Hewitt turned his race everything with wheels into an amazing Indy 500 run. Steve and Sammy got to do Daytona 500 and Indy 500. Steve and Lasoski IROC, but WoO has not been the pipeline. We all know the talent is there, but the opportunities are few and far between. We all know Steve, Sammy, Wolfgang, Schatz, Haud, etc... are more talented than many who got a legitimate shot in NASCARs top series' and we all know that the racing is better and driving them is more "fun" and enjoyable, But it's easy to see why those folks took their shot at NASCAR and some still are, when you look up the net worth of Blaney, Gordon, Stewart, Edwards, Newman, Kahne, Stenhouse, etc... compared to Schatz, Kinser, Swindell etc.... Fun don't pay the bills - I'm glad Stewart, Kahne and Stenhouse have the opportunity to field the sprint car teams they do thanks to their time in NASCAR. Alex Bowman's new sprintcar team will be another one to watch as they grow. Bell and Larson obviously will continue running when they can and be owners moving forward. Just my .02 cents

3togo
April 20, 2021 at 09:55:59 AM
Joined: 06/14/2016
Posts: 492
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Posted By: Murphy on April 20 2021 at 07:10:24 AM

    OK, maybe I'm not real familiar with Gordon's World of Outlaws career.



Yeah,  maybe misunderstood, however he has said that Wolfgang was his favorite driver and he ran WoO.



RodinCanada
MyWebsite
April 20, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 1720
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Sounds like many consider the WoO to be the refinery.  They have found their destination of choice and the pipeline delivers to the WoO.4


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Murphy
April 20, 2021 at 11:05:42 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: 3togo on April 20 2021 at 09:55:59 AM

Yeah,  maybe misunderstood, however he has said that Wolfgang was his favorite driver and he ran WoO.



    The post by armyduke above explains it well. The NASCAR guys that moved up from openwheel cars came out of USAC ranks, not WoO. I wonder if it has anything to do with winged/non-winged experience?



dirtonly
MyWebsite
April 20, 2021 at 01:45:50 PM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 43
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I really don't think many of the Winged 410 racers want to go NASCAR. Otherwise they would have taken a different route in competiton series. The adrenalin rush from driving a 410 can't be touched by NASCAR overall speeds. Its a totally different experience.


"I was so loose out there that  could hardly get back
in line for the restart", Bobby Allen circa 1996 (?)
*****************************************************
"I'm not a driver, I am a racer." Steve Smith 19, 1992 

Nick14
April 20, 2021 at 01:51:08 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
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I agree with Ford in that the real pipeline is lined with money to get to your big money form or motorsports such as Nascar, Indycar, Road Racing, Etc. As for what do you drivers aspire to be, that really is subjective to each individual person and the types of experiences they want to have. Many drivers would like the opportunity to race in Nascar which I do not have a problem with unlike many sprint car and dirt track diehards. Others dream of just racing WoO, or trying various forms or racing like a Tim Steele, while others want to just run late models on dirt or asphalt. Its personal preference.

As far as getting to the big money motorsports the way to get there 99% of the time is money whether its you have it, family has it, know someone who has it, marry into it, develop a relationship with a company, etc. This is nothing new although a lot of people think it is. In the past even prior to the formation of Nascar, individuals would bring money to certain car dealers or mechanics such as a Red Vogt and pay them to make their cars go faster and in some cases, pay them not to make other individual's car faster. Happened in the AAA days as well, so it has been going since people were organizing races in farm fields although the $/capita has changed.

Really the 2 things that I have noticed that has changed is the cars are too aero dependent making the racing bad, and the drivers are not likeable anymore. Go watch races from the 90s on youtube and you will notice engagement for position on the track throughout the field, today yeah you might get some intense racing first 3-4laps after a restart but boring after. When I was younger I did not have an aligence to any car manufacturer but I like Earnhardt, Martin, Burton, Marlin, Petty, and others. I didn't like Jarrett, Wallace, Bodine, Irvin but if they won I really didn't care. Really the only person I didn't want to see win was Gordon just because he won all the time. Today I don't want to see over half the field win because they have a spoiled previlaged arrogance  about them unlike the confident arrogance that the drivers in the past had.



hiroshimacarp
April 20, 2021 at 02:12:57 PM
Joined: 10/06/2018
Posts: 310
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Posted By: Nick14 on April 20 2021 at 01:51:08 PM

I agree with Ford in that the real pipeline is lined with money to get to your big money form or motorsports such as Nascar, Indycar, Road Racing, Etc. As for what do you drivers aspire to be, that really is subjective to each individual person and the types of experiences they want to have. Many drivers would like the opportunity to race in Nascar which I do not have a problem with unlike many sprint car and dirt track diehards. Others dream of just racing WoO, or trying various forms or racing like a Tim Steele, while others want to just run late models on dirt or asphalt. Its personal preference.

As far as getting to the big money motorsports the way to get there 99% of the time is money whether its you have it, family has it, know someone who has it, marry into it, develop a relationship with a company, etc. This is nothing new although a lot of people think it is. In the past even prior to the formation of Nascar, individuals would bring money to certain car dealers or mechanics such as a Red Vogt and pay them to make their cars go faster and in some cases, pay them not to make other individual's car faster. Happened in the AAA days as well, so it has been going since people were organizing races in farm fields although the $/capita has changed.

Really the 2 things that I have noticed that has changed is the cars are too aero dependent making the racing bad, and the drivers are not likeable anymore. Go watch races from the 90s on youtube and you will notice engagement for position on the track throughout the field, today yeah you might get some intense racing first 3-4laps after a restart but boring after. When I was younger I did not have an aligence to any car manufacturer but I like Earnhardt, Martin, Burton, Marlin, Petty, and others. I didn't like Jarrett, Wallace, Bodine, Irvin but if they won I really didn't care. Really the only person I didn't want to see win was Gordon just because he won all the time. Today I don't want to see over half the field win because they have a spoiled previlaged arrogance  about them unlike the confident arrogance that the drivers in the past had.



that last paragraph nails it for me...and i would really enjoy watching david gravel or brady bacon in a hendrick car instead of william byron and alex bowman.  i looked them up and at least bowman has a midget background.  it seems like getting to the k/n series is the first milesone...and i would imagine it takes a good amount of money to run one of those cars.  not a particularly exciting series though since the race i saw only had about 12 cars.  from there's it's arca or trucks, then xfinity, then cup.  i assumed the trd involvement in non-wing cars would help get more sprint car guys into cup...but other than bell that doesn't seem to be happening.

noah gragson really bothers me in nascar and i'm disappointed dale jr. hasn't sent him packing yet.  the only thing worse than a boring young driver is an arrogant one.  he was whining at homestead that lapped cars wouldn't get out of his line...including lead lap cars.  the bottom was wide open.  

it would help everyone if we knew one day young prospects like gio scelzi (who i think raced k/n) or buddy kofoid might wind up in nascar.  throw in veterans or guys who just want to race and it reminds me of a good american hockey league team.  i prefer minor leagues to the pros so i guess this is why i like the sprint car racing so much...except they are pros to me which is why i want at least a few more of them to move up and get the attention they deserve.



Nick14
April 20, 2021 at 07:21:05 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
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Posted By: hiroshimacarp on April 20 2021 at 02:12:57 PM

that last paragraph nails it for me...and i would really enjoy watching david gravel or brady bacon in a hendrick car instead of william byron and alex bowman.  i looked them up and at least bowman has a midget background.  it seems like getting to the k/n series is the first milesone...and i would imagine it takes a good amount of money to run one of those cars.  not a particularly exciting series though since the race i saw only had about 12 cars.  from there's it's arca or trucks, then xfinity, then cup.  i assumed the trd involvement in non-wing cars would help get more sprint car guys into cup...but other than bell that doesn't seem to be happening.

noah gragson really bothers me in nascar and i'm disappointed dale jr. hasn't sent him packing yet.  the only thing worse than a boring young driver is an arrogant one.  he was whining at homestead that lapped cars wouldn't get out of his line...including lead lap cars.  the bottom was wide open.  

it would help everyone if we knew one day young prospects like gio scelzi (who i think raced k/n) or buddy kofoid might wind up in nascar.  throw in veterans or guys who just want to race and it reminds me of a good american hockey league team.  i prefer minor leagues to the pros so i guess this is why i like the sprint car racing so much...except they are pros to me which is why i want at least a few more of them to move up and get the attention they deserve.



For me it is not necessarily if the run winged/non wing/Midget, Outlaws/USAC, or late models on dirt or asphalt. For me it is the accomplishments of getting that ride and I think that is where a lot of fans are noticing. The fact that drivers that are getting the opportunities do not have a resume near what some other drivers have, not just in different forms of racing. As much as I do not like Kyle Busch, he hit the nail on the head somewhat when he said that some guys are out there racing and they haven't even won a race at their local short track. But his statement is also hypocritical because he is a car owner as well and also hires drivers based on the money they bring to the table.

Nascar and Indycar have also helped increase the cost and narrow the pipeline/opportunity for drivers and car owners. Both Big Bill France and his son were shrewd businessmen and did some underhanded things but at least they made the business revolve around the racing but when Brian France took over even before he was announced CEO he started making the racing revolve around the business. Back in the 80's & 90's you had ASA as an avenue that drivers could use (Martin, Musgrave, Wallace's, Kuwuicki, Kenseth, Trickle, Benson, Schrader, even Jimmie Johnson) as well as Arca, Southwest Tour, and the Goodys All Pro Late Model Series. While Nascar owned a couple of those series, the designs were mostly a short track late model template so a lot of guys could race the same car across multiple series cheaper per capita than racing a full K&N schedule today. The 80's, 90's, and early 2000s had more of the ECHL & AHL hockey reference that you put in as far as development and opportunity than there is today. There if players perform they move up and get opportunity. In racing if they have money they move up regardless.  



Murphy
April 20, 2021 at 09:02:15 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: StanM on April 20 2021 at 08:24:02 AM

Keep in mind that when we look at the NASCAR races on tv this season that most places are still limiting crowds.  



Stan- Did you get an e-mail I sent you?



HardTopDave
April 21, 2021 at 06:26:13 AM
Joined: 03/21/2021
Posts: 307
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The only kind of pavement racing worth watching is drag racing, otherwise its dirt dirt and more dirt :)

screw nascar



StanM
MyResults MyPressRelease
April 21, 2021 at 08:20:49 AM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 5548
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Posted By: Murphy on April 20 2021 at 09:02:15 PM

Stan- Did you get an e-mail I sent you?



I don't know, what did you send me?


Stan Meissner

Nick14
April 21, 2021 at 10:04:17 AM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
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Posted By: on at


Didn't he get fired from his ride as well? I remember him going on Dale Jr's podcast a few years ago talking about how his goal when he was young was WoO sprint cars and possibly running the Indy 500. He had mentioned that when he and his step dad had approached some Indycar teams they were looking for people to bring big money at that time so we are talking late 80's. I'm not really up on my Jeff Gordon pre Nascar history, but from what he had said he had torn up a lot of equipment and the owner let him go which is when he got the USAC ride and was on Thursday Night Thunder consistently winning. It was when they were able to get a TV crew to go to the Buck Baker racing school and feature him that the rides in Nascar opened up so money/production in a different way. Although he did get his ride on his talent when he impressed a Busch Series owner to let Gordon drive the car instead of himself.



Murphy
April 21, 2021 at 11:00:19 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: StanM on April 21 2021 at 08:20:49 AM

I don't know, what did you send me?



I came accross and old program from the Minnesota State Fair and thought of you. It's not much, but I'd be willing to mail it to you if you're interested.



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