Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

That being said, Donny needs to win about 150 more races and a few more championships before I'd rank him ahead of Kinser.  Kinser has the advantage of having raced more years to rack up more stats, so we'll see where he ends up.... I have a feeling that this year is gonna be a painful one for the rest of the Outlaws.

Some points to ponder:  (and some will contradict each other--which is why this argument is so intriguing--because there may not be a clear cut answer)

1.  Steve is still my favorite of all time.  And, to me, he ranks #1 of all time as greatest winged sprint car driver ever--for now.  Problem is, Donny has years to go--so that could change.  

2.  Did Steve race against more hall of famers than Donny?  Yes.  Could that change?  Why not?  Are we saying we have stopped putting drivers in the hall of fame?  Plenty of future hall of fame drivers racing around the country right now---they just haven't been voted in yet.  I know, I know---they aren't as good as the "good 'ole days".  I think you're wrong if that's your opinion--but that's my opinion.  I will be looking back 20 years from now telling all the young pups that these new guys can't hold a candle to the drivers I watched.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Generation after generation.  

3.  Tougher to win a race now?  Hell yes.  As has been eluded to many times on Hoseheads, cars are too equal right now.  That makes what Donny has done very impressive.  More impressive than Steve's career?  Let's wait and see.  Maybe, maybe not.  If this is the middle of Donny's dominance, his career may very well end up more impressive.  If Donny starts to fade over the next 5 years, then I say he lands at number 2--in my book.  

4. It seems like there are a lot of folks that have a double-tongue when giving their argument.  Here's how the argument usually goes:  "Donny is so dominant, I wish we had the good ol' days when the racing was good.  You know when Kinser and Wolf and Sammy were racing.  What?  Donny more dominant than Kinser?  No way, Kinser made them look like idiots!".  Okay--so which is it?  Was the racing better then?  Or, did one man dominate?  If Kinser dominated sprint car racing, quit talking about how much better the racing was back then and how much it sucks now because of.................domination by the guy you say isn't as dominant!

If you agree with any of the above, then I think we can agree on this:  The conversation is going to continue for years to come and the mere conversation and friendly banter acknowledges that at the very least, Kinser and Donny deserve to be spoken about in the same breath.  Anyone that keeps calling it a "Donny suck fest" needs to realize--I am not a fan of Donny and have only applauded him one time.  That was when he came from the B to win the Nationals.  (I know, I know.  Once again not the good ol' days because if they onlly ran 30 laps he wouldn't have made it--but that's another argument)

I'd agree with most of your points but would make exception with items 1&3. In # 1 you state him as the greatest winged driver. No disagreement there but I'd just call him the greatest sprint car driver period. To validate my point isn't Steve the only driver to win Knoxville both wing & non wing? And I believe he won what was likely his last non wing start when the CRA offered up a $10K bonus to any non regular to beat them at eldora. I remember the day well. Shuman stood on the front stretch and proudly proclaimed that if the WoO had ran more non wing that he'd had more wins than steve. Steve lapped Shuman that day & passed Bubby Jones for the win. This was likely his first non wing start in nearly a decade. Are there guys out there with a better non wing record? Certainly, but that's because the best paying races were run with a wing and that's where the 11 was. Even today there isn't enough money for a full time driver to make a living running non wing. 

#3. The argument that the cars are more equal now. That's true except for 1 car. Much like in steve/Karl's era. The 15 is clearly a superior car. Not to take anything away from Donny at all but the 15 is clearly in a class by itself. I don't believe for a minute that they are doing anything outside the rule book but their car just fpat out phas an advantage or 3 & the margin is getting wider. 

To your point on wing/non-wing-----I only state greatest winged sprint car driver of all time because I have not followed non-wing racing.  I live in an area where I am lucky enough to be able to follow winged sprint cars with some driving.  I don't want to step on anyones toes in the non-wing world when I have only seen a handful of non-wing races. 

On the equal cars--I meant the window for innovation is much more narrow now.  How's that? 

Fair enough. 

There is a common denominator between the 11 & 15. Ricky Warner is a student of Karl Kinser and obviously paid attention while he was in class and ive heard he still calls Karl regularly. 

I'd agree with most of your points but would make exception with items 1&3. In # 1 you state him as the greatest winged driver. No disagreement there but I'd just call him the greatest sprint car driver period. To validate my point isn't Steve the only driver to win Knoxville both wing & non wing? And I believe he won what was likely his last non wing start when the CRA offered up a $10K bonus to any non regular to beat them at eldora. I remember the day well. Shuman stood on the front stretch and proudly proclaimed that if the WoO had ran more non wing that he'd had more wins than steve. Steve lapped Shuman that day & passed Bubby Jones for the win. This was likely his first non wing start in nearly a decade. Are there guys out there with a better non wing record? Certainly, but that's because the best paying races were run with a wing and that's where the 11 was. Even today there isn't enough money for a full time driver to make a living running non wing. 

#3. The argument that the cars are more equal now. That's true except for 1 car. Much like in steve/Karl's era. The 15 is clearly a superior car. Not to take anything away from Donny at all but the 15 is clearly in a class by itself. I don't believe for a minute that they are doing anything outside the rule book but their car just fpat out phas an advantage or 3 & the margin is getting wider. 

Actually Wolfgang also won the Knoxville Nationals in a non-winged sprinter, twice.....1977-1978....and of course three times with a wing. And even though he didn't venture into the USAC ranks very often, he also won in a USAC Silver Crown car, Sprint car and a Midget. Too bad his career was cut so short!

I don't like watching him win--all the time--actually anytime--but you are absolutely correct.  He is unreal on any surface.  To compare to the rough surface you speak of from Vegas (I have not watched the highlights yet) I watched him run Rockford last July and holy rough surface!  He and Gravel were the only cars that drove it like they stole it and Donny was just a bit better most of the race for the win.

I'll go one step farther--not only has he won well, but he has also lost pretty well for the most part too.  Last year's Nationals were a great example.  He was unhappy about the way Jason raced him from the way it sounds but if you watch the replay of that race, Donny stands in victory lane and gives Jason genuine congratulations.  He also spoke very highly of Jason's performance that night.  What do you think Sammy would have done in that situation?  (Ironically, I am a bigger fan of Sammy than Donny but Donny definitely handles these situations with more class)

We are seeing one of the greatest ever--and many will argue we are in the midst of seeing THE greatest ever.  Not ready to say that yet, but might have to change my tune in 10-12 years.  We'll see.  Hard to take the torch from the King and pass it to Donny now.  But, only an idiot would argue they don't deserve to be talked about in the same breath. 

I hear what you're saying about Donny & I agree... what they are doing is amazing. But you say that at any given outlaw show there are 15 cars with equal equipment and that is mostly true but realistically there are only 3-5 cars that have a honest shot at a win. So how is it that much different? And look at Steve's record at the Grove....certainly where he faced a full field of quality cars, I believe he is somewhere around the top 5 in all time feature winners there whilst only running there 6-8 times per year!!! And it wasn't just Karl's car that he was good in.... I've seen him win in Johnny Vances dirt champ car. And don't forget the time the CRA came to the Midwest & offered up a $10K bonus to anyone who could beat them at eldora. I remember Shuman standing on the front stretch that day proclaiming that if the WoO had ran more non wing that he'd have more wins than steve....steve lapped Shuman that day and passed Bubby jones for the win....and this was with his first NW start in a decade. 

The way I see it the 15 has some things goin for it. The first being longevity, while everybody else is changing things & crew, the 15 is status quo. Secondly, Ricky Warner, a Karl Kinser student who still talks to him on a regular basis.   There are certainly more things  

Actually Wolfgang also won the Knoxville Nationals in a non-winged sprinter, twice.....1977-1978....and of course three times with a wing. And even though he didn't venture into the USAC ranks very often, he also won in a USAC Silver Crown car, Sprint car and a Midget. Too bad his career was cut so short!

Some points to ponder:  (and some will contradict each other--which is why this argument is so intriguing--because there may not be a clear cut answer)

1.  Steve is still my favorite of all time.  And, to me, he ranks #1 of all time as greatest winged sprint car driver ever--for now.  Problem is, Donny has years to go--so that could change.  

2.  Did Steve race against more hall of famers than Donny?  Yes.  Could that change?  Why not?  Are we saying we have stopped putting drivers in the hall of fame?  Plenty of future hall of fame drivers racing around the country right now---they just haven't been voted in yet.  I know, I know---they aren't as good as the "good 'ole days".  I think you're wrong if that's your opinion--but that's my opinion.  I will be looking back 20 years from now telling all the young pups that these new guys can't hold a candle to the drivers I watched.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Generation after generation.  

3.  Tougher to win a race now?  Hell yes.  As has been eluded to many times on Hoseheads, cars are too equal right now.  That makes what Donny has done very impressive.  More impressive than Steve's career?  Let's wait and see.  Maybe, maybe not.  If this is the middle of Donny's dominance, his career may very well end up more impressive.  If Donny starts to fade over the next 5 years, then I say he lands at number 2--in my book.  

4. It seems like there are a lot of folks that have a double-tongue when giving their argument.  Here's how the argument usually goes:  "Donny is so dominant, I wish we had the good ol' days when the racing was good.  You know when Kinser and Wolf and Sammy were racing.  What?  Donny more dominant than Kinser?  No way, Kinser made them look like idiots!".  Okay--so which is it?  Was the racing better then?  Or, did one man dominate?  If Kinser dominated sprint car racing, quit talking about how much better the racing was back then and how much it sucks now because of.................domination by the guy you say isn't as dominant!

If you agree with any of the above, then I think we can agree on this:  The conversation is going to continue for years to come and the mere conversation and friendly banter acknowledges that at the very least, Kinser and Donny deserve to be spoken about in the same breath.  Anyone that keeps calling it a "Donny suck fest" needs to realize--I am not a fan of Donny and have only applauded him one time.  That was when he came from the B to win the Nationals.  (I know, I know.  Once again not the good ol' days because if they onlly ran 30 laps he wouldn't have made it--but that's another argument)

Actually I think he would have made it... At the 25 lap break he was up to at least 7th might have been 5th... I can't remember what lap he took the lead but I do know it wasn't very many laps after the halfway point.

Actually I think he would have made it... At the 25 lap break he was up to at least 7th might have been 5th... I can't remember what lap he took the lead but I do know it wasn't very many laps after the halfway point.