Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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But you realize that the instance with Larson and this instance are different based on track policy and that hypotetitaclly this has likely happened every race since then but it was only enforced on these two occaisonas because of track specifics in the infield?

Yes, it;s a rule. But it;s not something they police weekly. Tony even said as much in a story regarding it. It happened then and now due to where they were at. And that's why they did it. Tony said it was put in ploace due to the insrance policy at Juliet. It wasn't done for any other reason

So a question...if a crew member was somewhere where they werent supposed to be and got hit by a wrecking car.  How many would be talking about track safety or lack thereof?

The box was litteraly less then 10 feet from the racing surface with no fencing and nothing mor than a concrete barrier. There was nothing protecting them from a car wrecking. If anything, the place they allotted them was  extremnely close to the track. Putting this as a safety thing is just silly

I was there and am a big Posse fan......and you are absolutely correct, if it was Reutzel, Blaney and Eliason, the fans would not have said a thing. The loser in my eyes was BAPS Speedway. They had a huge crowd and hopefully it doesn't have a long term effect for future sprint car shows at the Speedway. Every dirt track in America needs a few "home runs" each season crowd wise to keep the doors open. By the way, those who left missed a hell of a feature. McIntyre & Blaney put on quite a battle.

Someone posted on social media they were made aware of this rule the previous 2 nights as well and no one broke it.  I can neither confirm, nor deny these claims.  However, if this is true, I think the rule was enforced properly.  

No one broke it because no one is watching for it. Car owners that didn't get dinged last night are already coming out and saying their crew guys were not in that area last night. Others are saying they don;t even know where "The box" was at Williams Grove. Tony has already gone on record as saying he doesn;t have the staff to be policing the box area and he put it in place for a certain track (Juliet) due to their insuraqnce policy. Otherwise they are not watching for it and don't care.They didn't even see it last night, they were tipped off by a team. Which is why it also took longer to tag dewease and gee..because they didn;t see it and were told by others. They were informed of it, chose to take action based "On the rule" and then everyone started tattling on each other because they were mad about it

The more I read on social media from fans in attendance, the funnier this gets to me.  One person pointed out how fans all over the stands went crazy, and started cheering when DD got DQ'd.  Then, same set of fans went nuts and left when Lance got booted--for the same exact infraction.   I think the double-standard is so plain to see here.  

Many pointed out the fans were the biggest losers in all of this.  They are correct.  We are a bunch of losers.  

Check on the video on Donnie Kreitz's twitter page of the driver's meeting. Official clearly says area is where your crews CAN be. It sounds like the typical this is where the work area will be stuff. Nothing is said that the crew MUST stay contained within this area. It is never implied that there is anything more to it. Yeah yeah yeah I know it's in the rules and we've all read every line of every document we've ever signed and know all the rules of everything we've ever participated in. My understanding is this rule is in place for two reasons: safety and to eliminate signaling. There are tracks they go to where they want the crews in a specific area for safety reasons. I get that but I don't know that this was exactly the case last night. The other is there is to be no communication and/or signaling from a crew to a driver except under an open red. Is this an actual rule? I don't know and I'm not taking the time to look it up but it seems to be common knowledge that they don't want it. If they keep everybody clustered together, rule or not, it makes it awfully difficult to accomplish. If I'm an official with a series that has a rule like this that differs so much from the norm and we all know it does, I'm making specific note of it. In fact, I'm making a point of drawing a lot of attention to it and making the penalty absolutely clear since the penalty is so harsh. DQ'ing driver's after the fact isn't the goal. They lose, the series loses and the fans lose. Clearly there was a communication breakdown that so many teams go DQ'd and I put that on the driver's meeting explanation. They should have a standard explanation on this policy they go over at every driver's meeting. The official should have it printed out and read right off of it every time so they know they covered it. If I'm Port Royal, I'm telling the Allstars to get this problem resolved asap and get some good will flowing with the fans. Port is paying out a nice purse and if fans are so turned off by this that they don't show up, Port is going to be collateral damage in this whole mess.          

Thanks for your calm response....my question wasn't meant as a pot stirrer and I  glad you took it was meant ...an honest question. I also agree every track needs the homerun as you say and I hope this isn't a huge black eye.  We as race fans tend to hold longtime grudges and many times it's unwarranted. I would hope those that left give it another chance. Every time we go to a race there's as much of a chance for it to be a bummer as it is a barn burner and it sounds as if, according to you who was there, that they in fact did miss a barn burner. In my mind everyone deserves a mulligans now and again and I feel this would be the case, although I wasn't there as I live in a place in direct correlation to my moniker. Now if a cluster you know what occurs several times at said venue, then a grudge may be warranted. 

I was there last night and being from Pa, I do take pride in our local cars.  I can see how others in the Country can view Posse fans as arrogant based on a very small but outspoken percentage of fans.  A majority of Pa fans want to see a good race and if the locals get beat, thety will give credit where credit is due on that night.  What happened last night was a gigantic gong show which makes you question how that could even happen with a "professional' series.  Was there a big conspiracy, I would say absolutely not.  Was there a gigantic lapse of judgement from the race director, I would say absolutely yes.  If the tip came from another team and not actually seen by the All Star officials like previously stated in this thread, then no enforcement should ever had taken place.  The job of any official is to collaborate with other officials and see if the penalty actually took place.  If they didn't see it, they can't call it.  No different then any other sport. 

Another issue is the lack of communication.  I stood in the drivers meeting and they did mention these cones (just like the 12 second video shows).  However there was no elaboration on consequences, no explanation really at all.  The race directors job in these meetings is too explain these situations, especially specific rules to their series - he did not.  This was not a common place rule known at every track, this was a very specific rule for the All Stars and he did not explain this at all - period.  For the announcer to keep saying that this was specifically explained in the drivers meeting was an out and out lie, they did not explain it and again makes the series look very bad.  Five cars got dq'd last night, Larson got dq's a month ago.  So out of the six, five are not All Start regulars.  That would clearly indicate to me that they are not addressing this in the drivers meetings in a way that teams are able to understand and that falls 100% on the race director.   BAPS is not Knoxville and to try and put all those teams in a box like they would do with Quarter Midget parents is absurd.  The All Stars failed in a huge way last night and ruined what should have been a great night for the Snyder family and the rest of the military families that attended.

I fine you infinite dollars! And in turn I also will receive those infinite dollars! Fool proof

But on a more serious note: Don’t confuse us with facts!!!

Let's give the All Star's a chance to respond, and fix things/make things right as much as possible.

In the end, this is a business for them and I think we can all trust and assume that they know pissing off fans and race teams is not the way to run a successfull business.

There is a way to enforce your rules fairly yet not piss off an important base of fans and teams crucial to your series, and they will figure that out.

I'd be very suprised if over the next few days the All Stars don't make a sincere effort to make this as right as possible for everyone.

I have read the part of the rulebook that keeps getting referenced and I gotta say, it's not clear there either.  It talks about competitors, not crew members.  Does it count the crew as competitors?  This was not clear, and it is obviously not regularly enforced.

Everybody keeps bringing up the Larson incident, and I agree that by rule he was apparently DQ'ed for the same reason as the 5 last night, and not because his crew came all the way on to the track.   By the letter of the law, that is the reason for the DQ's, however, if the crew member hadn't gone on the track to Larson's car and only "wandered from the box", would anyone have noticed.  That was such a blatant and obvious violation of the rule that they really could not ignore it.  Last night, apparently some of the ones DQ'ed were DQ'ed  because they were going to an area of the infield where there were fans, to get a better view of the race, much different intent.  When it comes to even interpretation of governmental laws, intent and circumstances are often taken into account when punishment is given out.  The only time this doesn't happen is when there is a minimum sentence attached to a law.  However, as the ASCOC rule book is written, the officials have discretion on how to apply the punishment.  So, my points are these:   

1. I don't think anyone believes that there was intent to violate the rule or gain an advantage by the violations last night. 

2.  The rule is unclearly written, does not specifically mention crew members, and was obviously not understood by the offenders. 

3. At the driver's meeting, as the work area was outlined, there was no mention of a DQ for leaving the area.

Yes, rules are rules, and it doesn't mean they should not be enforced, but this needs to be done with a modicum of common sense.  Enforcement of rules is meant to protect the integrity of the series and it's participants, level the playing field, and ensure safety.  When enforced in that way, the punishment may anger a few individuals, but in the long run it is beneficial to the long term standing and respect that fans and participants have for the organization.  This time, instead, because they used a sledge hammer when it was unnecessary, they have lost trust from many drivers and teams (even ones who weren't there), alienated fans, and have potentially done damage to the bottom lines of their partners (sponsors, and track owners) who are affiliated with them and have upcoming races.   This is bad for business and I think it was unnecessary for it to go this far.  

Sorry for the long post, but it's just that in my opinion the way this went down last night, everyone came out of it a loser, except maybe for McIntyre who still drove a hell of a race.

Good points made but I will play devil's advocate.  

When I enter a school zone there is a sign that basically says "you're entering a school zone."  There is not a giant moose, like the one at Wallyworld, explaining the penalty for speeding in a school zone. 

When I get on the highway, I see a no passing zone.  There is not an elaborate sign explaining the consequences of passing in one of these zones.

When drivers are told where the scales are, is there a lengthy discussion about the penalty if caught underweight?  They all know it's a DQ.  

So, in the driver's meeting, if the director of the meeting says "this coned area is where the crews can be" does that not mean "you know, the area you must be because if you don't, your car will be DQ'd like Larson's was for example"  ??  Or, if you don't understand what the coned area is for, has anyone ever heard the expression "there is no such thing as a dumb question"  ?    I am willing to bet everyone (or almost everyone) understood the rule and consequences just fine.  

I wouldn't have Disqualified anyone.  This is the dumbest rule I have ever seen.   If I were an offical I would ignore that rule....stupidest thing I have ever seen in our sport in the 37+ years I have been around sprints.  It is like they are trying to get teams and fans mad at them.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

"I am willing to bet everyoone (or almost everyone) understood the rule and the consequences just fine."

While I don't disagree with most of your post, I think this is a reach based on what has happened since last night.

With Blaney not being able to pass him because you couldn't get a good grip around the track anywhere.  He rode on his right rear all race long and couldn't make the pass.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

I can't speak for everybody but here is how is see the crowd's reaction. These disqualifications weren't because of anything the driver did. As I stated in my prior post, I see this as a communication problem but that was unknown at the time. Dietrich getting disqualified angered some fans and there were some that immediately got up and left while others cheered. What we did know was this penalty was because of something the crew did not the driver. Dietrich is a polarizing driver so anything negative that happens to him is going to bring cheers from some. His crew is young and them making a blunder I saw as possible. Ryan Smith and Anthony Macri were announced as being DQ'd when Dietrich was announced. It went a little before it was announced that Lance and Skyler Gee had now been DQ'd. When it was announced that the 69k made a similar blunder, that left me scratching my head. The experience that crew has and they did something that got Lance DQ'd seemed odd. Anybody can make a mistake but I just felt something was off. With it being 5 cars total you just knew there had to be a story there. The realization quickly hit me and I think everyone else that without making a lap every local car in the first four rows was now gone. No I'm not saying there was a conspiracy but it certainly didn't look good. I don't think the mass exit was all about Lance it was the situation in general and that was the final straw. I saw people leave that I know are loyal to no particular driver get up and walk out. I stayed and watched the race and left soon after the interviews. When I exited the track I walked through the tunnel to find 5 police cars parked outside lights flashing. I felt bad that what this night was about, honoring our military, turned into such a fiasco.  

I had a guy with an earpiece in listening to to communications standing next to me and he was like...they just DQ'd the 48, the 72 and the 39, And this was before they announced it. When DD was first announced, the fans did cheer. But as stated, he;s the villain and plays it up, it;s inevitable some would view it as a cheering moment. But there were plenty scratching their heads going what just happened as well.

But what people don't get that were not there is that this happened, then they were pushed off. The field went to a rolling start to get back in line to restart after the red and after 3-4 laps around the track and somewhere around a 5-6 minute differecne, they then came out and said , Oh Yea, the 69k as well and the 99.

The Dewease crew infractions happened well after the red. They were literaly walking up to get a new view and doing nothing wrong. Skyle Gee's crew members had walked to the middle of the infield to get a better view of things. He explained it as "They said don't go out over the guardrail, I didn't know my guys couldn't watch the race from a different corner or area. So these guys got penalized essentially because they now had to stick to their guns after screwing the first 3. I literaly heard over theradio that they were getting Dewease and Gee because folks who were mad about the first 3 tipped them towards the other 2. They never saw any of it. It was all butthurt people causing a stir.

And the fans left because if the first 3 were not bad enough, when you obviously had to get info from someone else to now get 2 more or it would've happened all together...they were fed up. They were mad and it had turned comical and ridiculous. There was no bias from the fans in terms of drivers. As much as fans like to boo Danny, most didn't understand why it happened

sorry, my A.D.D. kicked in after page 1...

What is the reason for this rule? So what if a crew member goes to get a hot dog or to the bathroom? They gotta pack up and go home???

If there are insurance limits, OK. But if there isn't and they ain't doing something to the car, what difference does it make? 

The difference between this incident and Larson's:

1. only one car at Jolliet

2. Jolliet isn't in Pennsylvania - I'm not a chest pounding Posse guy but I ain't making no aplogies either