Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Brown started outside pole Friday dropped like a rock...what's your point...outlaws are on their game at the moment.

Commenting to your 2nd paragraph Outlaws usually fastest cars. First off their are I believe 16 of them so they may be the majority at most tracks this year. 

Lets look at Gator Motorplex in Texas their were only 28 cars, 24 in the A and like I said 16 Outlaws and not all made the A. 

Lets see who was in the dash and started the race up front : Craftsman Club Dash (8 Laps) - 1. 7S-Jason Sides [3]; 2. 4K-Kasey Kahne [1]; 3. 4-Paul McMahan [2]; 4. 15-Donny Schatz [5]; 5. 49-Brad Sweet [6]; 6. 93-Sheldon Haudenschild [4]

Feature (40 Laps) - 1. 5-David Gravel [10][$10,000]; 2. 4-Paul McMahan [3][$5,500]; 3. 7S-Jason Sides [1][$3,200]; 4. 15-Donny Schatz [4][$2,800]; 5. 41-Jason Johnson [8][$2,500]; 6. 17-Joey Saldana [15][$2,300]; 7. 2X-Parker Price-Miller [11][$2,200]; 8. 99-Brady Bacon [14][$2,100]; 9. 2-Shane Stewart [19][$2,050]; 10. 1S-Logan Schuchart [22][$2,000]; 11. 19-Brent Marks [12][$1,500]; 12. 11K-Kraig Kinser [18][$1,200]; 13. 67-Christopher Bell [21][$1,100]; 14. 82-Cap Henry [17][$1,050]; 15. 9-Daryn Pittman [9][$1,000]; 16. 84-Scott Bogucki [7][$900]; 17. W20-Greg Wilson [20][$800]; 18. 49-Brad Sweet [5][$800]; 19. 93-Sheldon Haudenschild [6][$800]; 20. 4K-Kasey Kahne [2][$800]; 21. 87-Aaron Reutzel [13][$800]; 22. 17G-Dustin Gates [23][$800]; 23. 33-Danny Lasoski [16][$800]; 24. 2C-Wayne Johnson [24][$800]; Lap Leaders:Jason Sides 1-13, Paul McMahan 14-29, David Gravel 30-40; KSE Hard Charger Award: 1S-Logan Schuchart[+12]

Qualifying - 1. 49-Brad Sweet, 11.479; 2. 15-Donny Schatz, 11.517; 3. 93-Sheldon Haudenschild, 11.53; 4. 7S-Jason Sides, 11.573; 5. 4-Paul McMahan, 11.618; 6. 4K-Kasey Kahne, 11.631; 7. 87-Aaron Reutzel, 11.651; 8. 41-Jason Johnson, 11.661; 9. 9-Daryn Pittman, 11.663; 10. 84-Scott Bogucki, 11.681; 11. 82-Cap Henry, 11.687; 12. 19-Brent Marks, 11.773; 13. 5-David Gravel, 11.805; 14. 2X-Parker Price-Miller, 11.838; 15. 17-Joey Saldana, 11.854; 16. 33-Danny Lasoski, 11.93; 17. 99-Brady Bacon, 11.947; 18. 11K-Kraig Kinser, 11.991; 19. W20-Greg Wilson, 12.027; 20. 2-Shane Stewart, 12.044; 21. 17G-Dustin Gates, 12.054; 22. 2C-Wayne Johnson, 12.081; 23. 67-Christopher Bell, 12.106; 24. 1A-Jacob Allen, 12.163; 25. 99T-Skylar Gee, 12.385; 26. 1S-Logan Schuchart, 12.385; 27. 88-Scottie McDonald, 12.672; 28. 13-Clyde Knipp, 12.69

of the top 10 finishers in the A main only 3 of them were in the dash all other 6 drivers weren't the quick qualifiers, heat winners or in the dash. Looks to me as they weren't the ones to start up front but the ones who seemed to pass cars, gravel qualified 13 started 10 and finished first, Johnson timed 8th not in the dash started 8th finished 5th, Saldana qualified 15th was not in the dash and finished 6th, shane s qualified 20th not in the dash and finishes 9th, quick guy sweet times 1st finished 18th, Sheldon 3rd quick in dash finishes 19th

+1

What a joke!!  I believe the point to J&J's post was "the outlaws are on their game"

This is followed up with rebuttals of "the fastest qualifiers start up front" and "they have higher quality cars"

(crickets)

That's the point of the post!!  They are on their game!!  Higher quality cars and faster qualifying times!!!  Holy $hit, is everybody brain dead?????????????     

Am I in favor of faster cars to the front of the heats?  No---I like action and passing.  But, while heat inverts are more entertaining to me--the selfish fan--they don't represent the cars that probably deserves to be in the front.  

Saying the WOO cars are only better  because of a format that puts the better cars up front is basically a paradox!!!!

You must really get your kicks rooting for the Globetrotters against The Washington Generals...

Full time professionals vs. part time racers.... big deal

We're still gonna root for The Posse or our various locals, thats what makes it fun

Lets be honest here.  As a whole the Outlaws have been fast this year.  I'm a Pa guy and I'll fully admit our boys aren't up to the standard they were last year as a whole.  The only car that has been consistantly outlaw fast in Pa this year or last year has been the 69K car, and you need more bullets in your gun if you going to consistantly beat the Outlaws.  Others drivers in Pa have shown speed at times but I think as a whole they are off.  When Monteith and Hodnett consistantly struggle you know something is up. 

And our locals are usually pretty good against them, but right now the Outlaws are pretty damned fast and on their game reguardless of how you slice it.  

Like you said doesn't make a bit of difference though, we'll root for our boys just the same.  

You missed my point. It isn't the entire roster of the WoO tour that is dominating the locals. Hell, 10 of the WoO drivers are being dominted, also, by the same small group of their own. You even point that out. So yeh, budget is a part of the equation. One of your examples is CA and the Roth teams. It's a fact that the Roth budget isn't what it was. You're right, Gravel dominated there. Budgets are relevant. You ask why McMahan and Destiny haven't won, hell the Destiny car didn't win on the All Star tour, either. I never said budget was the only factor. But change the fortunes around and there would be a difference. As for the rest of the teams you mention, they are the ones that I refer to as being more on a par with the locals in the form of competition. I have a hard time believing that Schatz, Gravel, Sweet and Pittman don't have the largest and most well spent racing budgets and racing know how at their disposal, beyond their trailers. The last I looked, private jets and the fanciest of motorhomes have never taken a checkered flag. Having the nicest pool cue in the world won't make a person a champion. It still takes talent and ability. But in all forms of racing today, the largest budgets most often dominate.

P.S. the rest of my original post about the WoO format and front row starts is also a critical part of the top drivers successes. And that is a result of qualifying and the WoO line up format.

There's no doubt the Outlaws are 'the best in the business'. They rolled through California, Pennsylvania and Knoxville with relative ease. The 15, 5 and 49 are the class of the field anywhere they go right now. 

As for the format, one thing we can all agree on is there is no perfect solution. It's all about trying to find a balance between what's fair for the drivers and the entertainment factor for the fans. 

But again, they are earning those front row spots by being faster than everyone else. You're making 2 arguments again. 

I happen to agree that the format is a little too skewed to the teams now, but as Corini said, what format is perfect?

In the top 23 ASCOC standings only the leader has a win this season. May indicate that the speed of locals and ASCOC are not as spread as locals with the WOO. More locals win at home??? Are the ASCOC not as fast as the WOO or does their inversion allow slower cars a better chance? Or is ASCOC comfortable with allowing the locals a better chance with the inversion? Encourage the locals, more passing etc. Maybe the ASCOC find success in  a competetive field where the WOO find success in a dominate field.

We need to define our our goal. WOO would have a goal of coming across as the best in the world so they would give advantage to their own - Its just business.

I personally would like to see passing so I like faster cars being handicapped for entertainment value. I think if given the chance I would pick a big ASCOC race over a WOO race next time out. I was at Williams Grove with "one lane-leader take" all racing and it was very disappointing.

Woo has created the image they are the best. Might be true but they don't provide the best entertainment, maybe the fastest cars and most track records but an inverted filed will provide more fans entertainment.IMO.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Started 6th due to Lynton being late to push. Had entire second row passed coming out of four and really just passed one car in 1&2.

I don't have any specific answers on format, but IMHO, the more inversion, the better. If the Outlaws are so tough (& obviously they are) let them prove it by passing. It would be a lot more fun to watch & REALLY prove a point

When I first started watching dirt track ("modifieds" hot rod coupes) at Eastside Speedway in Waynesboro, Va., they had TOTAL inversion based on season points. Smokey Stover won 22 out of 24 races in 1962, starting from the back. Of course the cars were all totally different, homebuilt hotrods. It was GREAT! The fans were all divided into pro & anti-Smokey camps & super enthusiastic

I think the Posse will still beat the WoO a few times this season.... we'll see

Thats because he jumped the start just like he did in the A main.

The leader starts the race on double file restarts per the rulebook.  Donny was the leader and when he hits the gas, the race is re-started.

Heard lots of people in the stands saying he jumped to, but by the rules he didn't.

He didn't jump the initial start of the race either, because if he had, it would have been impossible for Sweet to be in the lead when they went by Section K.

He didn't jump the start in the Dash either, cars were bumping each other and he drove by them after the green came out.  He went 4 wide into turn #1 during the Dash to get up to 2nd or 3rd.

Donny is on another planet when it comes to driving ability right now.  He put the car in spots that even Kinser in his prime didn't dare to IMO.

Firstly, only 16 drivers are following the full all star tour (if you click the "Driver Profiles" link the 16 cars/drivers pictured are the ones following the tour). Secondly, yes Kemenah is the only full time All star who has won a race. Only 3 drivers on the all star tour have any all star wins, and 10 of the 16 drivers are rookies in the all stars seeing many tracks for the first time. I'm from Ohio and I got to see a lot of the all star races at Attica and a couple at Wayne county over the past two years. The big difference is the All Stars lost the majority of their high end talent to other series and drivers leaving the tour.

Out of the top 6 in points last year only Kemenah (1st in points with 1 win last year) is running the tour again. Dale Blaney was 2nd in points with 7 wins, Sheldon Haudenschild was 3rd in points with 9 wins, Cap Henry was 4th in points with no wins, Kraig Kinser 5th with 2 wins, and Danny Holtgraver 6th with 3 wins. Those top 6 full time all stars were the only all stars with wins for a combined 22 wins. The remaining 19 races were won by locals or invaders such as Rico Abreu, Christopher Bell, and Danny Dietrich among others. Blaney's team lost sponsorship so he switched to Zemco 1z/Neumeister 11n, Sheldon went to the WoO, Cap Henry is back in the BWW 82 car, Kraig went back to the WoO, and Holtgraver's ride isn't racing this year so he's in his Family equipment with the D4 car.

There is a large parity between the skill levels of the all stars and WoO and that's typical. This year though, the All Stars have an especially weaker cast compared to last year. I was waiting for a breakthrough from some of the drivers but they just haven't found it yet. But, all that being said I'm not gonna ever complain about getting to see my local drivers take home some of that purse money from the All Stars being there. The ability for locals to come in and have a good shot to win has really been good for car counts in the All Stars as well this season. Kemenah has done a better job closing out races recently and will probably have a pretty easy road to the championship barring something going VERY wrong.

Yes the leader starts the race on the double file but not in turn 3. If thats the case why not start off turn 2 to keep them guessing. Donny and Sweet were playing game and he caught him hanging back through three and just punched it. I dont blame him for trying but I felt it was a jump. If they don't call that back then Lynton shouldn't have got called back in his heat race. As I have stated on another thread though I still don't feel if either went opposite ways it changes the outcome of either race.

Another year another thread complaining about the format. I remember years ago people were complaining about guys sandbaging qualifying so that they qualified 13-16 to start upfront in the heat race to get into the dash, and guys were getting screwed over because you could qualify 6th but could start 15th because of the whole inversion and dash thing. Then they went to only heat race winners into the dash and the top 4 remaining qualifiers and and people still complained about that saying heat races and dash were pointless.

Then the i think a few years ago when the Outlaws were in some of the stronger regions of California, Ohio, Midwest, PA there were some nights where the "locals" swept the top 3 and everyone who hated the Outlaws got on all of the message boards talking about how much they sucked and they could not even get a driver in the top 3 or 5. This arguement was being made at the same time people were complaining that there was not a lot of passing in a 30 lap feature race or the leader was coming from the first 2 or 3 rows of a 30 lap feature race. Then they changed the format again and now you have where you qualify is where you start in the heat race, and where you finish (aside from the dash) is where you will start in the feature which means the heat races mean something now(and we still have complaining). Personally, I think the racing has been better since they went to the newer format as the challenging for position has been closer, and guys are still moving through the field.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the Outlaws are the best group of drivers in winged sprint car racing no matter what the format is. It is the goal for a lot of young up and coming drivers and was the goal for a lot of older drivers. A lot of local/regional teams have aspirations of running with the Outlaws full time and there may be drivers out there that are better than a couple members of the outlaws. But as a whole group, they are the best. They schedule about 90 races every season, more fans show up to their shows than a local, All Star, KWS, MOWA, or any other type of show. No matter what the format is, you will still have Outlaws winning races and people will still be complaining about how the format/rules are geared toward them.

BINGO! I couldn't agree more. The WoO are the best thing going in print racing and has been for years! Some people are never satisfied no matter what. Long live the Outlaws! I never miss an opportunity to see them and will continue to support them anytime I can in the future!