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Topic: Just to stir things up...How did that ford thing workout at the STN?
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October 30, 2012 at
09:27:55 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on October 30 2012 at 08:42:43 AM
$50k nascar type motors turning 9500 rpm and making lots of horsepower isn't what built ASCS 360s into the thriving organization it was when Tommy Estes left a couple of years ago. The introduction of those type motors is not a positive step for 80% of the folks who race 360s. There's a place for those motors, it's called World of Outlaws. That's where the money is. 360s were intended to be a cost effective alternative to that. It's absurd to spend that much money for such small purses. ASCS kept it in check for a long time by having strict rules and enforcing those rules. You didn't need the latest and greatest every year to keep up. Unfortunately that isn't the case anymore and the 80% who are the backbone of the organization are the ones who are going to suffer. Just my opinion.
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That's what's great about the Roush Yates program. They bring a very competitive piece for substantially less than $50k and back it up with the best service out there. Chris and Jeremy are hands on and available almost 24/7. In fact in a lot of cases there motor costs less than their competitors. The fact that you can turn them 9500 rpm only speaks to their reliability. Sure they had a failure but so did some of there competitors. The introduction of "those type of motors" broadens the playing field and brings more cars and fans to the series. Anytime you have a traveling series with corporate sponsors and almost 70 races a year money becomes an issue. The cost to race is and will always be an issue. I heard recently while attending. show of an individual with over $30k in a spec sprint motor. Roush Yates simply offers an alternative to what's out there at a very competitive price for a very well built piece. As u state this is JMO mixed in with some facts
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October 30, 2012 at
10:26:20 AM
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This message was edited on
October 30, 2012 at
10:28:02 AM by minthess
Reply to:
Posted By: mlwspt on October 30 2012 at 09:27:55 AM
That's what's great about the Roush Yates program. They bring a very competitive piece for substantially less than $50k and back it up with the best service out there. Chris and Jeremy are hands on and available almost 24/7. In fact in a lot of cases there motor costs less than their competitors. The fact that you can turn them 9500 rpm only speaks to their reliability. Sure they had a failure but so did some of there competitors. The introduction of "those type of motors" broadens the playing field and brings more cars and fans to the series. Anytime you have a traveling series with corporate sponsors and almost 70 races a year money becomes an issue. The cost to race is and will always be an issue. I heard recently while attending. show of an individual with over $30k in a spec sprint motor. Roush Yates simply offers an alternative to what's out there at a very competitive price for a very well built piece. As u state this is JMO mixed in with some facts
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These middle class working guys like Dover and Hebing improving their program with a RY Ford really has everything screwed up. The 360 deal was so much better when almost everyone ignored the superior option. LOL
Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?
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October 30, 2012 at
11:31:05 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on October 30 2012 at 08:42:43 AM
$50k nascar type motors turning 9500 rpm and making lots of horsepower isn't what built ASCS 360s into the thriving organization it was when Tommy Estes left a couple of years ago. The introduction of those type motors is not a positive step for 80% of the folks who race 360s. There's a place for those motors, it's called World of Outlaws. That's where the money is. 360s were intended to be a cost effective alternative to that. It's absurd to spend that much money for such small purses. ASCS kept it in check for a long time by having strict rules and enforcing those rules. You didn't need the latest and greatest every year to keep up. Unfortunately that isn't the case anymore and the 80% who are the backbone of the organization are the ones who are going to suffer. Just my opinion.
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Valid comments MoOpenwheel.....
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October 30, 2012 at
12:25:43 PM
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From what I was told $50 wouldnt touch JJ motor. But you know how stories get told at the track.
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October 30, 2012 at
12:50:38 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: pack on October 30 2012 at 12:25:43 PM
From what I was told $50 wouldnt touch JJ motor. But you know how stories get told at the track.
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I bet JJ would let you touch it for 50 bucks.
Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?
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October 30, 2012 at
02:14:05 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sedalia28 on October 29 2012 at 11:59:58 AM
Texas guy...Your right, Sammy is one hell of a shoe and always has been. (Just wish he would man up when he makes a mistake!) 42 years? That makes you an old fart like me. Been goin sprint car racing since the 60's when I was a punk kid. My all time central Missouri driver was Roy Hibbard out of Marshall,Mo. and was lucky enough to see Blundy, Genniten(SP), Utz, Gary Scott,Carson, Ray Lee Goodwin, Parkinson, Weld, The Great Kenny Taylor and many others at State Fair Speedway (half mile and the mile) and Saline County speedway back in the day. Never forget the first time I saw the outlaws in 1979 at I-70 speedway. Full throtle all the way around. Sammy in the white 1n and the King in that ugly old white 11. Been hooked ever since the 60's. Anybody but Schatz.
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Sedalia28, we've probably rubbed elbows somewhere along the line. I started going with my parents to Sportsman/Saline County Speedway (bet I didn't miss more than a handful of Sunday Nights from '65 until it closed in what, '81 or '82?) and the State Fair tracks in '65. Made my first trip to Knoxville with them in '69. My local favorite was Tom Corbin. A few others we were lucky enough to see we're Earl Wagner, Jay Woodside, Dick Sutcliffe, Jim Jenkins, Eddie Leavitt, Jay Lyle, and etc. etc. etc. I was thinking just a couple of weeks ago about (and bet you remember) the IMCA sprint and late model doubleheaders at the Fairgrounds. I was even a fan of the late models back then. Guys like Ernie Derr, Ramo Stott, and Butch Hartman. Ah, the good ol' days. Makes me sad to think about Marshall and the Sedalia Mile being gone, and to drive by an abandoned I-70 Speedway. I would love to see I-70 covered in dirt again.
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October 30, 2012 at
05:24:23 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on October 30 2012 at 08:42:43 AM
$50k nascar type motors turning 9500 rpm and making lots of horsepower isn't what built ASCS 360s into the thriving organization it was when Tommy Estes left a couple of years ago. The introduction of those type motors is not a positive step for 80% of the folks who race 360s. There's a place for those motors, it's called World of Outlaws. That's where the money is. 360s were intended to be a cost effective alternative to that. It's absurd to spend that much money for such small purses. ASCS kept it in check for a long time by having strict rules and enforcing those rules. You didn't need the latest and greatest every year to keep up. Unfortunately that isn't the case anymore and the 80% who are the backbone of the organization are the ones who are going to suffer. Just my opinion.
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The ASCS concept was spec heads to limit rpm. oops/ fail.
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October 30, 2012 at
10:02:34 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: TxOutlaw on October 30 2012 at 11:31:05 AM
Valid comments MoOpenwheel.....
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R/Y motors cost no more and in some case much less than other 360's out there. Someone call R/Y and offer them $50k for a 360. You'll own one. At the end of the day more motor builders is better for the sport. I haven't seen a drop in car counts at the events we've run. Possibly much a do about nothing
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October 30, 2012 at
10:24:14 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MissouriSprintFan on October 30 2012 at 02:14:05 PM
Sedalia28, we've probably rubbed elbows somewhere along the line. I started going with my parents to Sportsman/Saline County Speedway (bet I didn't miss more than a handful of Sunday Nights from '65 until it closed in what, '81 or '82?) and the State Fair tracks in '65. Made my first trip to Knoxville with them in '69. My local favorite was Tom Corbin. A few others we were lucky enough to see we're Earl Wagner, Jay Woodside, Dick Sutcliffe, Jim Jenkins, Eddie Leavitt, Jay Lyle, and etc. etc. etc. I was thinking just a couple of weeks ago about (and bet you remember) the IMCA sprint and late model doubleheaders at the Fairgrounds. I was even a fan of the late models back then. Guys like Ernie Derr, Ramo Stott, and Butch Hartman. Ah, the good ol' days. Makes me sad to think about Marshall and the Sedalia Mile being gone, and to drive by an abandoned I-70 Speedway. I would love to see I-70 covered in dirt again.
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Ramo was my man, totally forgot about Eddie Leavitt especially on the mile during the fair for the 50 miler. The good old days for sure. The late models were cool as hell. Still have programs from back then with autographs from Mario, Don White, Roger McClosky(sp). Could walk to the carnival and see the rigs right on the street.( that would be open wheel trailors of course) I-70 for anything on dirt.
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October 30, 2012 at
10:55:56 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: mlwspt on October 30 2012 at 10:02:34 PM
R/Y motors cost no more and in some case much less than other 360's out there. Someone call R/Y and offer them $50k for a 360. You'll own one. At the end of the day more motor builders is better for the sport. I haven't seen a drop in car counts at the events we've run. Possibly much a do about nothing
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ANYBODY who pays that much for a 360 is plain and simple....a MO-RON!!!!
do it in the dirt
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October 31, 2012 at
11:06:02 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: minthess on October 30 2012 at 10:26:20 AM
These middle class working guys like Dover and Hebing improving their program with a RY Ford really has everything screwed up. The 360 deal was so much better when almost everyone ignored the superior option. LOL
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Thanks for making my point. Jack wouldn't have needed to "improve his program" if the rules had been kept the same and enforced. The motors he was winning races with 3-4 years ago could still be winning today. Instead he felt he needed to spend $40k for the latest and greatest to stay competitive. All ASCS has done is cost everyone a bunch of money. If you think that's a good thing then you obviously don't pay the bills on a race car or have plenty of money to do so. Have a great day!
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October 31, 2012 at
12:08:21 PM
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This message was edited on
October 31, 2012 at
12:11:36 PM by minthess
Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on October 31 2012 at 11:06:02 AM
Thanks for making my point. Jack wouldn't have needed to "improve his program" if the rules had been kept the same and enforced. The motors he was winning races with 3-4 years ago could still be winning today. Instead he felt he needed to spend $40k for the latest and greatest to stay competitive. All ASCS has done is cost everyone a bunch of money. If you think that's a good thing then you obviously don't pay the bills on a race car or have plenty of money to do so. Have a great day!
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Wow. A post saying that a Ford is obviously a performance advantage over a sbc in a sprint car. RY might just might be moving the mountain. This is getting good.
Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?
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October 31, 2012 at
02:52:51 PM
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MoOpenwheel
First off... RY are 10-20k cheaper the. Al Parker or a lot of others... And ASCS is there own worst enemy. They let the Jason Johnson's Gary writes of the world push the limits more N more every year... And rather then stopping their own (touring cars) from winning all the races (kinda like WoO do in their line ups) they kept allowing them to further and further develop their engines... That's where the problems came in. It wasn't roush Yates... (No offense Kelly) but the big names running up front were Wesmar and Don Ott. Again it's not the builders fault. It's the organization who wasn't proactive.
I've been thinking about this for a few years now, How do they solve the problem? ( because all auto racing is far broken its not even funny) but IMO the only way to 'Fix' ASCS (if u want to call it fixing) would be Brodix buy back ALL ASCS casted heads and replace with 'the' or A race saver trype head.
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October 31, 2012 at
03:46:40 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on October 31 2012 at 02:52:51 PM
MoOpenwheel
First off... RY are 10-20k cheaper the. Al Parker or a lot of others... And ASCS is there own worst enemy. They let the Jason Johnson's Gary writes of the world push the limits more N more every year... And rather then stopping their own (touring cars) from winning all the races (kinda like WoO do in their line ups) they kept allowing them to further and further develop their engines... That's where the problems came in. It wasn't roush Yates... (No offense Kelly) but the big names running up front were Wesmar and Don Ott. Again it's not the builders fault. It's the organization who wasn't proactive.
I've been thinking about this for a few years now, How do they solve the problem? ( because all auto racing is far broken its not even funny) but IMO the only way to 'Fix' ASCS (if u want to call it fixing) would be Brodix buy back ALL ASCS casted heads and replace with 'the' or A race saver trype head.
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Just to be clear, I don't blame any of the engine builders. They don't make and enforce the rules. They're just doing what customers will pay for. I blame ASCS entirely for letting it get so far out of hand. We know Brodix isn't going to buy heads back. The only solution I've heard is to just open the head rules up. You have to start with the spec head but can do whatever you want to it. I have no idea if that would cost more than what they currently get for a set of CNCd heads or not. It's the same machine doing the work. They'd just have to write a different program. It would eliminate the worry about cheating though. And as long as there's head rules there's going to be cheating, we know that. I'm afraid it would get us on the same path as 410s though. More and more exotic parts would just drive the cost up even more. My only problem with the Fords is that they have a distinct advantage under the current rules. That's not R/Y's fault. I don't blame them for getting all they can. Like you said, it's ASCS that's hosed everyone. Maybe it's time we seriously think about a crate sprint motor. We could have good HP and still be reliable for a decent cost. I don't know how they're working out for stock cars but if I could be assured that they're all the same and nothing could be done without getting caught I might be for it. It'd be the only way a lot of us would ever have a motor similar to the top guys. You want to build more and more power, there's a place for that. Leave the spec class as it was supposed to be. I don't know if something like that is feasible or not but like you, I know the current path isn't a good answer.
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October 31, 2012 at
04:37:08 PM
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This message was edited on
October 31, 2012 at
04:39:50 PM by Wesmar
I see a change coming for the engines in the very near future.
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October 31, 2012 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on October 31 2012 at 04:37:08 PM
I see a change coming for the engines in the very near future.
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Based on the way many famous sanctioning bodies have changed the rules when Fords are winning, I see new rules coming as well.
Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?
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October 31, 2012 at
09:28:25 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on October 31 2012 at 03:46:40 PM
Just to be clear, I don't blame any of the engine builders. They don't make and enforce the rules. They're just doing what customers will pay for. I blame ASCS entirely for letting it get so far out of hand. We know Brodix isn't going to buy heads back. The only solution I've heard is to just open the head rules up. You have to start with the spec head but can do whatever you want to it. I have no idea if that would cost more than what they currently get for a set of CNCd heads or not. It's the same machine doing the work. They'd just have to write a different program. It would eliminate the worry about cheating though. And as long as there's head rules there's going to be cheating, we know that. I'm afraid it would get us on the same path as 410s though. More and more exotic parts would just drive the cost up even more. My only problem with the Fords is that they have a distinct advantage under the current rules. That's not R/Y's fault. I don't blame them for getting all they can. Like you said, it's ASCS that's hosed everyone. Maybe it's time we seriously think about a crate sprint motor. We could have good HP and still be reliable for a decent cost. I don't know how they're working out for stock cars but if I could be assured that they're all the same and nothing could be done without getting caught I might be for it. It'd be the only way a lot of us would ever have a motor similar to the top guys. You want to build more and more power, there's a place for that. Leave the spec class as it was supposed to be. I don't know if something like that is feasible or not but like you, I know the current path isn't a good answer.
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You say a Ford has a distinct advantage in a major sprint car series but yet most are still running chevies? That is just the craziest thing I've ever heard. I just can't even imagine it!
Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?
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October 31, 2012 at
09:44:30 PM
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My last post on the subject. R/Y has no advantage on the vast number of Chevys out there. I own two of there most recent updated pieces. They are competitive with anything out there. What makes the difference is driver skill/experience, car set up, and years and years of EXPERIENCE. Put any top tier driver JJ, Shane Stewart, Paul McMahan in a equal car and the results the same they will outrun the vast majority of the field. Most of the time give them a slightly inferior car and they will still outrun the field. EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE!!!!!!
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November 01, 2012 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: mlwspt on October 31 2012 at 09:44:30 PM
My last post on the subject. R/Y has no advantage on the vast number of Chevys out there. I own two of there most recent updated pieces. They are competitive with anything out there. What makes the difference is driver skill/experience, car set up, and years and years of EXPERIENCE. Put any top tier driver JJ, Shane Stewart, Paul McMahan in a equal car and the results the same they will outrun the vast majority of the field. Most of the time give them a slightly inferior car and they will still outrun the field. EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE!!!!!!
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mlwspt...Finally a logical post from a man who has "two of the most recent updated pieces". Good luck to you no matter what kind of motor is in your sprinter. Also, I havnt heard that "many famous sanctioning bodies" have changed the rules at Knoxville, Ascs or the World of outlaws lately have you?
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November 01, 2012 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: minthess on October 30 2012 at 12:50:38 PM
I bet JJ would let you touch it for 50 bucks.
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Well this is starting to enter into a different realm
http://gph.is/XMLGff
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