|
|
|
|
|
Topic: Question for Johnny Gibson
|
Email this topic to a friend |
Subscribe to this Topic
| Report this Topic to Moderator
|
|
Page 2 of 2 of 35 replies
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
09:50:11 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/19/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
273
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 26 2020 at 11:44:32 AM
Agree. And let's face it, the overwhelming majority of provisionals are non-stories. Most of the time, they missed the setup and are just plain not fast. I can remember very few instances where a provisional has made any noise in the feature event. And if they did, well I guess that would add another element to the race that might make it more exciting. I can see zero negatives in allowing provisionals in racing. Provisional starters do not knock someone else out of a spot in the feature. And, some fans, many of them kids, come to an Outlaw show to root on a particular driver. Parking that driver after the B is bad business in my book. Even if that driver rolls out in 25th and does finish 20th, that fan, or that kid gets to see that driver in the feature like they were paying to see. I just don't get why this is an issue, ever. It's okay not to like the provisional, but it seems there is an obsession with it when it really doesn't have an impact on the actual feature, one way or the other. All the points guys are racing for points. And all the points guys know the provisional rule. End of story. Enjoy the feature and let the officals set the line ups.
|
I agree 100 percent. If a provisional was taking someone's spot, I would maybe feel a touch different, but as it is, they don't hurt anyone.
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
09:58:19 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
04/21/2017
|
|
Posts:
|
1120
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: staggerman on October 26 2020 at 10:48:14 AM
At Williams Grove National Open they started 30 cars, 3 Woo provisional and 3 WG provisionals. So it has been done. IMO, race your way in or load it on the trailer.
|
They should start 40 at the grove.
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
09:59:55 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
08/16/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
3943
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: beezr2002 on October 27 2020 at 09:48:41 AM
I'd like to see those stats too. It might seem like a waste of money, but its another opportunity for your sponsors to be on the big stage, and you are hoping to keep those sponsers for next year.
|
And to add to that, they are racing for the purse in the feature event. The car and hauler are already there at the track. Can't be a waste of time and money to go for another $1000 or more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
10:42:08 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/02/2004
|
|
Posts:
|
1116
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 27 2020 at 09:59:55 AM
And to add to that, they are racing for the purse in the feature event. The car and hauler are already there at the track. Can't be a waste of time and money to go for another $1000 or more.
|
The last 20 finishes for prov starters
20 25 26 23 22 23 21 27 25 23 21 16 30 29 27 25 23 16 22 20
average finish 23.2
maybe sponsors like seeing their car run around in last
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
10:59:49 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
08/16/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
3943
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on October 27 2020 at 10:42:08 AM
The last 20 finishes for prov starters
20 25 26 23 22 23 21 27 25 23 21 16 30 29 27 25 23 16 22 20
average finish 23.2
maybe sponsors like seeing their car run around in last
|
Sponsors like seeing their cars on the track. I have heard is said more than once that sponsors of low-budget Nascar teams love it when they are getting lapped on TV or when the car comes to a stop on the track from a wreck or engine failure. More coverage for their name than they would normally get. Sponsors want exposure.
That said, your numbers just prove how much of a non-issue the provisional is and why most of us don't really care that they have them.
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
11:09:25 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
08/01/2013
|
|
Posts:
|
431
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 26 2020 at 11:44:38 AM
Agree. And let's face it, the overwhelming majority of provisionals are non-stories. Most of the time, they missed the setup and are just plain not fast. I can remember very few instances where a provisional has made any noise in the feature event. And if they did, well I guess that would add another element to the race that might make it more exciting. I can see zero negatives in allowing provisionals in racing. Provisional starters do not knock someone else out of a spot in the feature. And, some fans, many of them kids, come to an Outlaw show to root on a particular driver. Parking that driver after the B is bad business in my book. Even if that driver rolls out in 25th and does finish 20th, that fan, or that kid gets to see that driver in the feature like they were paying to see. I just don't get why this is an issue, ever. It's okay not to like the provisional, but it seems there is an obsession with it when it really doesn't have an impact on the actual feature, one way or the other. All the points guys are racing for points. And all the points guys know the provisional rule. End of story. Enjoy the feature and let the officals set the line ups.
|
Right on.
And then there are those in a huff because their racer didn't stay around after the races so they could get an autograph. But then there is another group that doesn't want to see somebody like Pittman racing.
Maybe the provisional isn't so bad when considering it from the sponsor's point of view. They are paying money to have that car on the track and if it isn't, that's bad for PR. Is the provisional more of a concession to the sponsor than the driver?
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
12:03:48 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
06/04/2012
|
|
Posts:
|
1734
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 27 2020 at 10:59:49 AM
Sponsors like seeing their cars on the track. I have heard is said more than once that sponsors of low-budget Nascar teams love it when they are getting lapped on TV or when the car comes to a stop on the track from a wreck or engine failure. More coverage for their name than they would normally get. Sponsors want exposure.
That said, your numbers just prove how much of a non-issue the provisional is and why most of us don't really care that they have them.
|
I also have never worried or thought twice of provisionals. They are what they are, a way of awarding people who support your series/track on an off night to give them a shot in not losing points & point fund money. I think I have been present at two races where a provisional starter made into the top 5, both were at the Brad Doty Classic with Pittman coming from 25th to 3rd, and the following year Sweet came from 25th to 4th.
The one thing about the numbers posted is who took the provisional. It's rare to see the top runners like Schatz, Sweet, Schuchart, and Gravel take a provisional except maybe once or twice a season. Their have been times when each has and has made it to maybe 10th-15th. That's still 20-30pts in the point battle and how the past couple years have been, those points are crucial. Plus, the more cars they put out on the track means more lap traffic which usually means better racing
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
02:23:05 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
04/21/2017
|
|
Posts:
|
1120
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: rolldog on October 27 2020 at 11:09:25 AM
Right on.
And then there are those in a huff because their racer didn't stay around after the races so they could get an autograph. But then there is another group that doesn't want to see somebody like Pittman racing.
Maybe the provisional isn't so bad when considering it from the sponsor's point of view. They are paying money to have that car on the track and if it isn't, that's bad for PR. Is the provisional more of a concession to the sponsor than the driver?
|
Not sure it is fair to say that a group of people don't want to watch DP race. I think people are asking for a clarification of the rules. He and his family are nice and seem to be well liked. And he is a darn good racer!
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
02:25:47 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/26/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
3292
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on October 27 2020 at 08:46:54 AM
Can Johnny give us the stats?
How many provs. have been taken and how many have finished in yhe top 10?
And has the extra points awarded ever moved anyone up in the standings?
Seems like a big waste of money for car owners.
|
I think the guy you want for the job is Bill V. Isn't he the one that does the bang-up job on stats?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
05:47:42 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
06/18/2018
|
|
Posts:
|
32
|
|
|
|
I think provisionals are important for touring teams; rewards teams for following the whole tour and assures fans that their driver's night isn't over after a bad pill draw (Schatz Pevely in May) or after getting caught up in crash early in a heat (Sweet Lake of the Ozark in May).
I think provisionals get a bad rep because most provisionals are taken by drivers lower down in the standings and aren't competitive cars, but the top 3 in points have maximized the few provisionals they've used this year.
Sweet (1) - Lake of the Ozark 25th to 8th (+17)
Schuchart (2) - Volusia 25th to 5th & Knoxville 25th to 13th (+32)
Schatz (2) - Pevely 25th to 8th & Knoxville 25th to 11th (+31)
|
|
|
|
|
October 27, 2020 at
05:57:52 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/02/2004
|
|
Posts:
|
455
|
|
|
|
Even if a driver using a provisional finishes last in the feature, he's still earnerd 12 more points that he would have had he not taken the provisional. (102 points for last, 90 for drivers that DNQ.) Thus a driver using 4 provsionals in a year would earn an extra 48 points in the season standings--more than the gap between first and second in driver standings, and first and third in owner standings going into the final weekend of the season. Using only the examples Slidejob_90 provided, Sweet would have 46 fewer points at this time had he not used a provisional, Schuchart would have 88 fewer points, and Schatz would have 86 fewer points.
|
|
|
|
|
October 28, 2020 at
09:31:04 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
04/21/2017
|
|
Posts:
|
1120
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Slidejob_90 on October 27 2020 at 05:47:42 PM
I think provisionals are important for touring teams; rewards teams for following the whole tour and assures fans that their driver's night isn't over after a bad pill draw (Schatz Pevely in May) or after getting caught up in crash early in a heat (Sweet Lake of the Ozark in May).
I think provisionals get a bad rep because most provisionals are taken by drivers lower down in the standings and aren't competitive cars, but the top 3 in points have maximized the few provisionals they've used this year.
Sweet (1) - Lake of the Ozark 25th to 8th (+17)
Schuchart (2) - Volusia 25th to 5th & Knoxville 25th to 13th (+32)
Schatz (2) - Pevely 25th to 8th & Knoxville 25th to 11th (+31)
|
Not a big fan of provisionals but you do bring up some interesting points. I've been going to races for a few years now and I'm trying to think when provisional spots started happening? I think the WoO started it but I imagine some tracks had a past champion provisionals...maybe? Good topic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 29, 2020 at
06:32:04 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
08/16/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
3943
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 29, 2020 at
06:33:10 AM by egras
Reply to:
Posted By: beezr2002 on October 28 2020 at 09:31:04 PM
Not a big fan of provisionals but you do bring up some interesting points. I've been going to races for a few years now and I'm trying to think when provisional spots started happening? I think the WoO started it but I imagine some tracks had a past champion provisionals...maybe? Good topic.
|
I'm not sure the WoO started it. I believe promotor's provisionals have been going on for a very long time. And, if I'm not mistaken (maybe I am) there are no promotor's provisonals allowed at any WoO sanctioned event? Not sure. Yes, it is a good topic. I think there is a small group of people, many of them who repeatedly bash the WoO, who hate the provisionals because they believe they show favoritism towards the WoO drivers. It really is nothing more than that in most cases. I've never had a single issue as have most fans I've talked to. As has been pointed out, the provisional starter is almost always a non-factor.
|
|
|
|
|
October 29, 2020 at
06:44:13 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
04/01/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
678
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 29, 2020 at
06:58:04 AM by BillV99
First off, let me throw my 2 cents into it, before I throw some numbers around!
I never understood why people get upset at provisionals. What are they hurting? They do no take away a spot for someone else. They do not add a penny to the total feature purse, so the promoter is NOT paying anything extra because most series, at least the Outlaws, the driver taking the provisional give up the 'start' money. And like many have said here, its only a reward for drivers who support that series, or track in the case of track provisionals.
Also, to me, sprint car racing is at it's best when the leaders get to traffic. So to me, adding more cars to the feature only adds an increased possibility that the leaders get to traffic. Nothing more frustrationg than a race that always gets sprung out after a start/restart in open traffic, only for a yellow to come out as soon as the leaders reach lapped traffic.
Now to the numbers, I dont keep track in my database on what driver was a provisional, but its safe to say any driver starting a feature 25th or worse was a provisional.
In 2020 (these numbers are for World of Outlaw races only), there have been 50 provisionals taken, thats an average of 0.94 per race. The average finish of those drivers is 20.52. Since 2013, a total of 394 provisionals taken, 0.67 per race. The average finish since 2013 is 19.56.
In 2013, 1 driver finished in top 5, 3 in top 10, 6 in top 15...
- Name Position Start RaceDate Track
- Logan Schuchart 5 25 2020-02-08 Volusia,FL
- Donny Schatz 8 25 2020-05-23 Federated Auto Parts I-55,MO
- Brad Sweet 8 25 2020-05-29 Lake Ozark,MO
- Donny Schatz 11 25 2020-08-14 Knoxville,IA
- Logan Schuchart 13 25 2020-06-120 Knoxville,IA
- Mason Daniel 15 26 2020-02-07 Volusia,FL
List of drivers taking a provisional in 2020...
- Name Count
- Jason Sides 5
- Kraig Kinser 5
- Bill Rose 4
- Mason Daniel 4
- Spencer Bayston 4
- Jacob Allen 3
- Wayne Johnson 3
- TJ Stutts 2
- Carson Macedo 2
- Logan Schuchart 2
- Lucas Wolfe 2
- Donny Schatz 2
- Dylan Cisney 1
- Alan Krimes 1
- Austin Pierce 1
- Kyle Reinhardt 1
- Chase Dietz 1
- Dan Shetler 1
- Daryn Pittman 1
- Brad Sweet 1
- Brent Marks 1
- Brock Zearfoss 1
- Carl Bowser 1
- Sheldon Haudenschild 1
- note, David Gravel has not taken a provisional
- also, Parker Price-Miller has also not taken one, since he has missed 8 features this year, I assume he(and his team) are not eligible for one?
Since 2013, top finishes, 1 in top 3, 5 in top 5, 27 in top 10...
- Name Position Start RaceDate Track
- Daryn Pittman 3 25 2016-07-12 Attica,OH
- Brad Sweet 4 25 2017-07-11 Attica,OH
- Donny Schatz 4 25 2014-07-09 Limaland,OH
- Logan Schuchart 5 25 2020-02-08 Volusia,FL
- Kerry Madsen 5 25 2013-03-06 Las Vegas,NV
- Greg Wilson 7 25 2017-03-31 Keller,CA
- Brian Montieth 8 26 2019-10-05 Williams Grove,PA
- Sheldon Haudenschild 8 25 2019-11-09 Charlotte,NC
- Kraig Kinser 8 26 2013-07-10 Limaland,OH
- Donny Schatz 8 25 2020-05-23 Federated Auto Parts I-55,MO
- Brad Sweet 8 25 2020-05-29 Lake Ozark,MO
- Kraig Kinser 9 25 2019-07-18 Eldora,OH
- Cory Haas 9 26 2014-07-17 Lincoln,PA
- David Gravel 9 25 2014-11-07 Charlotte,NC
- Brent Marks 9 25 2018-02-28 Las Vegas,NV
- Daryn Pittman 9 26 2018-05-11 Eldora,OH
- Mark Dobmeier 9 25 2018-06-15 River Cities,ND
- Greg Wilson 9 25 2017-07-28 Hartford,MI
- Donny Schatz 9 25 2017-09-08 Silver Dollar,CA
- Brad Sweet 9 25 2017-11-03 Charlotte,NC
- Bud Kaeding 9 26 2015-03-14 Thunderbowl,CA
- Kevin Swindell 10 25 2015-04-11 Calistoga,CA
- Byron Reed 10 26 2016-07-12 Attica,OH
- Brent Marks 10 25 2018-02-09 Volusia,FL
- Sheldon Haudenschild 10 25 2019-03-16 Stockton,CA
- Alan Krimes 10 26 2014-10-04 Williams Grove,PA
- Kraig Kinser 10 25 2014-05-26 Lawrenceburg,IN
SprintCarRatings.com
Twitter
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
October 29, 2020 at
01:09:37 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
08/16/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
3943
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: BillV99 on October 29 2020 at 06:44:13 AM
First off, let me throw my 2 cents into it, before I throw some numbers around!
I never understood why people get upset at provisionals. What are they hurting? They do no take away a spot for someone else. They do not add a penny to the total feature purse, so the promoter is NOT paying anything extra because most series, at least the Outlaws, the driver taking the provisional give up the 'start' money. And like many have said here, its only a reward for drivers who support that series, or track in the case of track provisionals.
Also, to me, sprint car racing is at it's best when the leaders get to traffic. So to me, adding more cars to the feature only adds an increased possibility that the leaders get to traffic. Nothing more frustrationg than a race that always gets sprung out after a start/restart in open traffic, only for a yellow to come out as soon as the leaders reach lapped traffic.
Now to the numbers, I dont keep track in my database on what driver was a provisional, but its safe to say any driver starting a feature 25th or worse was a provisional.
In 2020 (these numbers are for World of Outlaw races only), there have been 50 provisionals taken, thats an average of 0.94 per race. The average finish of those drivers is 20.52. Since 2013, a total of 394 provisionals taken, 0.67 per race. The average finish since 2013 is 19.56.
In 2013, 1 driver finished in top 5, 3 in top 10, 6 in top 15...
- Name Position Start RaceDate Track
- Logan Schuchart 5 25 2020-02-08 Volusia,FL
- Donny Schatz 8 25 2020-05-23 Federated Auto Parts I-55,MO
- Brad Sweet 8 25 2020-05-29 Lake Ozark,MO
- Donny Schatz 11 25 2020-08-14 Knoxville,IA
- Logan Schuchart 13 25 2020-06-120 Knoxville,IA
- Mason Daniel 15 26 2020-02-07 Volusia,FL
List of drivers taking a provisional in 2020...
- Name Count
- Jason Sides 5
- Kraig Kinser 5
- Bill Rose 4
- Mason Daniel 4
- Spencer Bayston 4
- Jacob Allen 3
- Wayne Johnson 3
- TJ Stutts 2
- Carson Macedo 2
- Logan Schuchart 2
- Lucas Wolfe 2
- Donny Schatz 2
- Dylan Cisney 1
- Alan Krimes 1
- Austin Pierce 1
- Kyle Reinhardt 1
- Chase Dietz 1
- Dan Shetler 1
- Daryn Pittman 1
- Brad Sweet 1
- Brent Marks 1
- Brock Zearfoss 1
- Carl Bowser 1
- Sheldon Haudenschild 1
- note, David Gravel has not taken a provisional
- also, Parker Price-Miller has also not taken one, since he has missed 8 features this year, I assume he(and his team) are not eligible for one?
Since 2013, top finishes, 1 in top 3, 5 in top 5, 27 in top 10...
- Name Position Start RaceDate Track
- Daryn Pittman 3 25 2016-07-12 Attica,OH
- Brad Sweet 4 25 2017-07-11 Attica,OH
- Donny Schatz 4 25 2014-07-09 Limaland,OH
- Logan Schuchart 5 25 2020-02-08 Volusia,FL
- Kerry Madsen 5 25 2013-03-06 Las Vegas,NV
- Greg Wilson 7 25 2017-03-31 Keller,CA
- Brian Montieth 8 26 2019-10-05 Williams Grove,PA
- Sheldon Haudenschild 8 25 2019-11-09 Charlotte,NC
- Kraig Kinser 8 26 2013-07-10 Limaland,OH
- Donny Schatz 8 25 2020-05-23 Federated Auto Parts I-55,MO
- Brad Sweet 8 25 2020-05-29 Lake Ozark,MO
- Kraig Kinser 9 25 2019-07-18 Eldora,OH
- Cory Haas 9 26 2014-07-17 Lincoln,PA
- David Gravel 9 25 2014-11-07 Charlotte,NC
- Brent Marks 9 25 2018-02-28 Las Vegas,NV
- Daryn Pittman 9 26 2018-05-11 Eldora,OH
- Mark Dobmeier 9 25 2018-06-15 River Cities,ND
- Greg Wilson 9 25 2017-07-28 Hartford,MI
- Donny Schatz 9 25 2017-09-08 Silver Dollar,CA
- Brad Sweet 9 25 2017-11-03 Charlotte,NC
- Bud Kaeding 9 26 2015-03-14 Thunderbowl,CA
- Kevin Swindell 10 25 2015-04-11 Calistoga,CA
- Byron Reed 10 26 2016-07-12 Attica,OH
- Brent Marks 10 25 2018-02-09 Volusia,FL
- Sheldon Haudenschild 10 25 2019-03-16 Stockton,CA
- Alan Krimes 10 26 2014-10-04 Williams Grove,PA
- Kraig Kinser 10 25 2014-05-26 Lawrenceburg,IN
SprintCarRatings.com
Twitter
Facebook
|
Great stuff. I agree on all points. Only 1 podium taken in the last 8 seasons and no wins "stolen" from those "deserving." (sarcasm) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 30, 2020 at
10:41:32 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
07/26/2019
|
|
Posts:
|
166
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on October 27 2020 at 08:46:54 AM
Can Johnny give us the stats?
How many provs. have been taken and how many have finished in yhe top 10?
And has the extra points awarded ever moved anyone up in the standings?
Seems like a big waste of money for car owners.
|
Im pretty sure sheldon had to use one on night 2 of world finals, and he ended up moving past Ian madsen in points.
|
|
|
|
