Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

If you read my orginal post . i didn't say a word about Woo. I was talking about weekly racing in PA. That why it said POLL FOR PA FANS!!! So imagine weekly shows in PA every week with Lance and DD on pole. WOW. Stands be empty in a few weeks.Guess some fans don't care for passing. Maybe i just TO OLD!! haha

Yet another thread centered around inverting or handicaping fields because back 20 or so years ago the winner came from 8th or worst. Those things happened back in 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999, maybe even a little in 2009 but its 2019 almost 2020. The field of cars from top qualifier to last place are not seperated as much as they used to be because of equipment and driver knowledge now.

1 thing that I still find odd is how around the 2012, 13, and 14 season people on here and on social media talked about front row winners with the Outlaws. It was almost like there were no front row winners during ordinary local weekly shows as well which there were. At the same time the Outlaws would go out to California, Midwest, Ohio, and PA and whenever a "local" would win someone from that area would go "Outlaws can't beat California" or "Outlaws can't beat PA" etc. Nevermind the fact that you would look at the qualifying results and most of the time the Outlaws would sweep the Top 5 a lot of the time but through the magic of inverting local racers would start on the front row of heat races, get about 4-6 guys in the dash, start up front, lead all the laps win the feature then everyone would start the chest pounding. Then when the Outlaws would do it the discussion was well the Outlaws made the track prep the track a certain way and everything was locked down, or bash the driver for doing the same the local guy did in the previous scenairo. You add into the whole talk of at the time they only had about 7-9 drivers traveling full time, people were like who needs the Outlaws to come blah blah blah, I can see why the current situation is adventagous.

1 it doesn't handicap a person for being fast. 2 it is for a series where people that are trying to do this for a living and provide for families and have made many sacrifices in order to do this so they should not be penalized for being good. Nor should there be a risk of losing prize money for starting 8th-12th because you were a fast car in qualifying and not being able to pass cars that are only maybe a tenth or less slower than you in 30 laps. And 3 it has produced good racing and more competition as 3 drivers have 10 or more wins with another winning 8, plus the points battle is close. I prefer all professional sports or competitions to not be handicapped in any manner. Imagine in the NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLB if the better team was required to spot the worst team a few scores just so the game would be more exciting and go down to the end.

I'm sorry, but here we are again on this same argument.  What is the obsession with handicapping a show so the underdogs can win again?  I'm good with 4 car inversions in heats or 8 car inversions (heats and feature) on qualifying night of Nationals, but a 12 car inversion on weekly show for the feature?  I'm not understanding how that is beneficial in today's world.  

My economics teacher's quote about the US workforce would apply here:  "we are in a race to the bottom."  

Yes, they're doing it to make a living (some of them) Its entertainment. If races are boring, fans stop coming, everybody loses. Plus, races with car counts of only the few top contenders won't sell either... why discourage the low $ teams?

No handicapping in major sports? why do you think worst teams get top draft picks?

I'm not really a fan of rewarding mediocrity. I don't really think an invert of handicapping should be much more than the top 6. If tracks were always super racey maybe the top 9. The days of putting the slow cars at the front so they can steal a show once in awhile are over because we don't have many slow cars anymore, and if we do they are unlikely to make the handicap unless it includes the whole field. The best races I've seen tend to be the races where all the good cars start up front together - such as at the Dirt Classic, National Open, etc. which were both great races. I don't even like the system they use at the Knoxville Nats for the same reasons. 

I'm not really a fan of rewarding mediocrity. I don't really think an invert of handicapping should be much more than the top 6. If tracks were always super racey maybe the top 9. The days of putting the slow cars at the front so they can steal a show once in awhile are over because we don't have many slow cars anymore, and if we do they are unlikely to make the handicap unless it includes the whole field. The best races I've seen tend to be the races where all the good cars start up front together - such as at the Dirt Classic, National Open, etc. which were both great races. I don't even like the system they use at the Knoxville Nats for the same reasons. 

Drivers on the Outlaw circuit are doing it for a living which is why I can understand teams wanting the current format since it rewards being good in all aspects. I'd hate to be on the road 9-10 months qualify up front consistently, have to start 4-8 spots further than I should, finish 2nd or 3rd & lose 5-6+ grand a race. Locally wise, her in Ohio I have talked to a few drivers who do like the Outlaw method. Usually if they qualify good, heat gets inverted, at the mercy of the track, can't pass in the heat, start 8th or worst, finish 3rd-5th and don't compete for the win.

Entertainment yes, but competition first. Handicapping is manufactured competition which is what Nascar & WWE are. Outlaws wise it seems like attendance is up at the races I go to. Locally I don't see a difference here either but they are still handicapping and still getting front row winners consistently. The low budget teams could simply try to get better too. I know a couple of low budget teams here that aren't discouraged to go to an Outlaw show and compete with them.

And the draft isn't a handicap in a sense of a per game/race basis. It's a crapshoot that some 22 year old kid can help your team, and if there are 500 to choose from, all 30+ teams ought to find 1 or 2 to make a difference unless they are stupid. In which case my NFL team is

Handicapping worked in PA up until about 2006 & that's when things started trending the other way. By the time 2009 rolled around, we had spec tires, flat wings & cockpit adjustable shocks were no longer allowed. Back then people screamed from the highest roof tops about how much they wanted more parity. In 2004 & 2005, Fred Rahmer won 34 races & 29 races respectively & most of our weekly shows were handicapped so Fred had to start 12th every week to do it. People got tired of seeing the same guys win and what about the low buck guys who start up front just to get smoked by lap 15 when Rahmer, Hodnett, Shaffer or Dewease come to the front? People wanted parity and they got it. Now it seems with that parity comes a lack of passing which should be the expected result. So as I predicted way back then, people are now not happy because they want more passing. You can't expect to have guys winning from mid pack every week when 90% of the field is basically running the same pace. Right now, the level of competition in PA is at an all time low. You could probably implement the old handicapping system right now and the 48, 21, 24 & 51 are going to the front most weeks at The Grove. The fields at Port & Lincoln are a bit more competitive but I still think there's a handful of faster cars that will win most of the races & it's the same guys who are winning most of the races right now. Ryan Smith, Macri etc. would pick a few off as well. No doubt about that. As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care what system we use. I enjoy good racing and in PA, we get that most weeks at all of our tracks no matter how they line them up. Maybe some people aren't entertained but I am so I guess it doesn't really matter to me. 

I'm not really a fan of rewarding mediocrity. I don't really think an invert of handicapping should be much more than the top 6. If tracks were always super racey maybe the top 9. The days of putting the slow cars at the front so they can steal a show once in awhile are over because we don't have many slow cars anymore, and if we do they are unlikely to make the handicap unless it includes the whole field. The best races I've seen tend to be the races where all the good cars start up front together - such as at the Dirt Classic, National Open, etc. which were both great races. I don't even like the system they use at the Knoxville Nats for the same reasons. 

I agree with almost everything you say.  

However, the Knoxville Nationals is the type of format the inverts work perfect for.  Why?  It isn't a one-night show.  You have multiple times to work your way to the front.  And, as Shatz proved a few years back, and Logan proved last year, there is plenty of time to work your way to the front of the Saturday night feature if you are fast.  Also, it's hard to argue that format as the fastest car has won it every year for as long as I can remember.  Maybe one could argue Kraig Kinser wasn't the fastest car at Knoxville the year he won it, but the track was also very heavy that week/weekend.  

For nightly shows, heat inverts of more than 4 do not work and feature inverts of more than 6 do not work.  Not anymore---at least consistently enough to continue trying them.  

Drivers on the Outlaw circuit are doing it for a living which is why I can understand teams wanting the current format since it rewards being good in all aspects. I'd hate to be on the road 9-10 months qualify up front consistently, have to start 4-8 spots further than I should, finish 2nd or 3rd & lose 5-6+ grand a race. Locally wise, her in Ohio I have talked to a few drivers who do like the Outlaw method. Usually if they qualify good, heat gets inverted, at the mercy of the track, can't pass in the heat, start 8th or worst, finish 3rd-5th and don't compete for the win.

Entertainment yes, but competition first. Handicapping is manufactured competition which is what Nascar & WWE are. Outlaws wise it seems like attendance is up at the races I go to. Locally I don't see a difference here either but they are still handicapping and still getting front row winners consistently. The low budget teams could simply try to get better too. I know a couple of low budget teams here that aren't discouraged to go to an Outlaw show and compete with them.

And the draft isn't a handicap in a sense of a per game/race basis. It's a crapshoot that some 22 year old kid can help your team, and if there are 500 to choose from, all 30+ teams ought to find 1 or 2 to make a difference unless they are stupid. In which case my NFL team is

Can't ignore this one.... WWE is "manufactured competition"????

More like Violent Soap Opera!

Don't make me start posting Marx Brothers videos again!

I guess I should have said simulated competition in the sense its pre-determined & not an actual competition lol. Plus I didn't want to insult soap operas with the state of the current crappy product that they have now. But I have absolutely zero problem with you posting Marx Brothers videos as I am a fan of the Marx Brothers. First one I watched was Night at the Opera and love Duck Soap, Horse Feathers, Monkey Business, and Day at The Races. I might be an older Millennial but doesn't mean I don't enjoy great comedy. Grew up watching old W.C Fields, Red Skelton, and Abbott & Costello tapes with my great grandma.

I agree with almost everything you say.  

However, the Knoxville Nationals is the type of format the inverts work perfect for.  Why?  It isn't a one-night show.  You have multiple times to work your way to the front.  And, as Shatz proved a few years back, and Logan proved last year, there is plenty of time to work your way to the front of the Saturday night feature if you are fast.  Also, it's hard to argue that format as the fastest car has won it every year for as long as I can remember.  Maybe one could argue Kraig Kinser wasn't the fastest car at Knoxville the year he won it, but the track was also very heavy that week/weekend.  

For nightly shows, heat inverts of more than 4 do not work and feature inverts of more than 6 do not work.  Not anymore---at least consistently enough to continue trying them.  

Watching those cars you named win from the back would be more entertaining than watching them win from up front.... takes a lot of driving skill.....

It could be worse no doubt, I thinkt the issues for this format arise when track prep isn't great. The first qualifying night the season was a great example of a lot of drivers having their entire week ruined by the format, and vice versa several drivers who had a free ride into the B and even into the show when they were a C, D or E main car due to the format putting them up front in their heat on a one lane track.  

Honestly I think the way every big race should be done is the dual heat format used in AU/Dirt Classic. To me that is the most refined, fair way to line up a race. Everyone gets to start close to the front for a heat, and everyone gets to start close to the back. Its impossible to make it on luck (in most cases) and you can't say you got screwed by the track because you will have the benefit of starting in front once as well.  

It could be worse no doubt, I thinkt the issues for this format arise when track prep isn't great. The first qualifying night the season was a great example of a lot of drivers having their entire week ruined by the format, and vice versa several drivers who had a free ride into the B and even into the show when they were a C, D or E main car due to the format putting them up front in their heat on a one lane track.  

Honestly I think the way every big race should be done is the dual heat format used in AU/Dirt Classic. To me that is the most refined, fair way to line up a race. Everyone gets to start close to the front for a heat, and everyone gets to start close to the back. Its impossible to make it on luck (in most cases) and you can't say you got screwed by the track because you will have the benefit of starting in front once as well.