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Johnny Utah
September 21, 2018 at 09:43:42 AM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 1221
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Posted By: Dlucks83 on September 21 2018 at 07:28:42 AM

Components on a race car breaking are not freak accidents. This could have been two drivers battling and touching wheels on entry or a tire blowing out with the same result. Tracks should be looking at how they can prevent cars from coming in contact with non-face planes of walls. Like catch fences and no breaks in walls on turn entry. That last one has puzzled me since I was a little kid. Why on earth are tracks creating openings in the wall on the two fastest part of the speedway? Not to mention tracks like Beaver Dam that have openings you can drive multiple rigs through side-by-side. There is no need for permanent openings that are bigger than like a grader.



Are steering failures are common? Im legitimately asking, I dont know.



MIDDLEFINGER
September 21, 2018 at 09:56:24 AM
Joined: 01/29/2010
Posts: 258
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Posted By: paydirt28 on September 21 2018 at 09:33:53 AM

R.I.P Greg Hodnett. Easily my favorite Posse driver. My condolences to the family.

In response to the post. Maybe someone can verify this but I thought that I heard one of the chassis rule changes for next year includes front radius rods being of steel construction, not aluminum as they are now. This will greatly reduce the likelyhood of the front axel being knocked out so easily and had it been in place a couple months ago spared Jason Johnson's life. 



.

in the modifieds we run aluminum radius rods, drag link, and tie rods. 

of course, they are heavier duty than the sprints use

they rarely break. they just bend 

the big problems I see a lot is the front axle tubing is too thin to take much of an impact without breaking

 



MandGRacing96
September 21, 2018 at 10:08:29 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 583
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Reply to:
Posted By: MIDDLEFINGER on September 21 2018 at 09:56:24 AM

.

in the modifieds we run aluminum radius rods, drag link, and tie rods. 

of course, they are heavier duty than the sprints use

they rarely break. they just bend 

the big problems I see a lot is the front axle tubing is too thin to take much of an impact without breaking

 



ALot of this is the tracks fault.  But some of it is on the drivers/teams.    They are the ones who tow to the tracks...they see the tracks...if they are unsafe..dont unload and go on down the road. 

What is the answer?  The 100% answer which will stop fatalities in racing?  Anyone? 

Safer barriers?  Well that would put 90% of tracks out of business. 

Yes there are easy fixes at alot of tracks and they should get done.  WIll never take the danger out of racing. 

Thoughts and prayers to the Hodnett family and Heffner racing team.  Greg was one of the nicest people Ive talked to at the races.




Zimmy00
September 21, 2018 at 10:15:28 AM
Joined: 07/21/2017
Posts: 13
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Posted By: ISUcyclones11 on September 20 2018 at 10:10:01 PM

I always try to wait for the emotion to come back down, but I honestly do not understand how tracks can have jagged edged walls (Jason Johnson, for example) or open walls on the outside of the track.  

You don't see these types of wrecks at Knoxville even though it has some of the highest speeds. The walls are much more forgiving when they are nice and even.

 



Please do me a favor afavor and Google Baps motor speedway. click on the map and then in the bottom left on the Satelite map. If you zoom in on turn ! i would love you to point out the "jagged edge"



highspeeddirt
September 21, 2018 at 11:05:09 AM
Joined: 01/06/2009
Posts: 399
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It didn't take me long on google maps to figure out the area on the track that is an issue. Its not jagged and is rounded but would still be a big impact if you hit that.

With that said I don't think all blame lays on the track in these incidents. A fair amount lays on the cars and the components themselves. Both areas need improved.

 



chathamracefan1
September 21, 2018 at 12:18:55 PM
Joined: 08/03/2008
Posts: 241
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Lots of tracks have issues to address.  Here in central IL, there are several 1/4 mile type tracks inside old horse track 1/2 miles.  Lincoln & Jacksonville both have warmup lanes that run from outside turn 4 down the front side & then off of turn 1.  Front stretch is open so drivers go off the track in turn 1.  No blunt ends, but there is a bit a ramping effect if someone gets into that area where the wall begins.  Chad Boat took a vicious ride at Linoln in a USAC midget race summer of 2017.  He was out for a while with I think a broken collarbone.  These are both shorter tracks, so the speed is not as high, but still fast enough to cause damage.  

Not pointing fingers, just using a couple tracks local to me as examples of the kind of things that may need to be looked at.  Maybe both of these places could close off the turn 1 runoff & just have cars go in/out at the turn 4 opening.  Fixing this stuff will take thought and applying different solutions based on the layouts of each track.  Some tracks are essentially landlocked & don't have room to do much different with their layout without significant costs.  




rolldog
MyWebsite
September 21, 2018 at 12:30:09 PM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 431
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After looking at pictures of BAPS, it is easy to see how this accident happened.  Something breaks, the driver loses control and goes straight into the wall.  And this opening has been there for 50 years according to previous posters.

I have a hard time blaming the track owners/operators for Greg's death.  Easy to say this should have been changed but everyone should take a look at YOUR home track and say - 'are there any areas that need to be fixed' and put some pressure on the management and drivers to get the deficiencies fixed.

My home track is Eagle Raceway in Eagle NE.  It is well-run, races completed on a good schedule and has competitive classes.  However, there are 2 areas of the track that aren't the safest and maybe it is time for them to get fixed.  I've never contacted management about them but that's what I'm planning on doing this afternoon.  I will encourage other fans I know to do so as well.  But I don't want to do it out of anger, but because I care about the sport and I appreciate the drivers, crews and safety officials that provide such great entertainment.



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
September 21, 2018 at 12:52:57 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Posted By: chathamracefan1 on September 21 2018 at 12:18:55 PM

Lots of tracks have issues to address.  Here in central IL, there are several 1/4 mile type tracks inside old horse track 1/2 miles.  Lincoln & Jacksonville both have warmup lanes that run from outside turn 4 down the front side & then off of turn 1.  Front stretch is open so drivers go off the track in turn 1.  No blunt ends, but there is a bit a ramping effect if someone gets into that area where the wall begins.  Chad Boat took a vicious ride at Linoln in a USAC midget race summer of 2017.  He was out for a while with I think a broken collarbone.  These are both shorter tracks, so the speed is not as high, but still fast enough to cause damage.  

Not pointing fingers, just using a couple tracks local to me as examples of the kind of things that may need to be looked at.  Maybe both of these places could close off the turn 1 runoff & just have cars go in/out at the turn 4 opening.  Fixing this stuff will take thought and applying different solutions based on the layouts of each track.  Some tracks are essentially landlocked & don't have room to do much different with their layout without significant costs.  



Curious here with a serious question - you would be proposing that cars exit using Turn 4 at Jacksonville? Can a sprint car even turn hard right to make it? I legitimately question if it could, especially if the track is wet.



chathamracefan1
September 21, 2018 at 01:05:47 PM
Joined: 08/03/2008
Posts: 241
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I'm thinking to exit, cars would roll around to backside & then cut thru infield to go out turn 4 exit.  This would also prevent exit to outside of track durning a race (except under yellow).  No way to just pull off except into infield.  I'm thinking of an arrangement like what Macon IL has off of turn 2 if you have ever been there.  




jax-webguy
MyWebsite
September 21, 2018 at 01:15:12 PM
Joined: 07/03/2010
Posts: 102
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Chathamracefan - I appreciate your thoughts and input and your outstanding support of our open wheel shows here in Central Illinois.  Stop me some night and I'll explain to you as well as any fan, driver or team our thinking regarding the area you mention or any other part of our facility from a safety standpoint.  Like anything, there are trade-offs and you look at each part of your track and ask if we did something different 'there' what would the effect be for different types of potential accidents.  

There for sure isn't a week - and rarely more than a day or two that goes by without us having a discussion amongst ourselves, with knowlegeable racers, with our insurance rep, with other track operators, or with concerned fans about infrastructure and safety.  I'm sure it's like that at almost every track in America.  It's a very common point of discussion and having had so many of them, I feel like I can answer "why" as to any aspect of our setup as it currently exists.  I feel like I should be able to explain to an injured driver or family member (or court if necessary) our thinking on "why" something was configured as it is if something bad were to happen.

Our track certainly isn't perfect from a safety standpoint.  No track is.  There are an unlimited number of ways a person could get hurt while racing at our facility.  What we try to do is evaluate what is going to happen if X occurs in a spot as currently configured vs what would happen if Y happend in that spot if redeigned instead.  Track safety is - and hopefully always will be - a work in progress.  Like most tracks, we have our list of improvements to make in the near term - which come on the heels of improvements earlier this year, and last year, and the year before that etc.  It doesn't end.

Yes, bad things will, can, and have happened on smaller tracks.  But I do regularly think about how fortunate I am that the track I grew up at down the street from where I live happens to be a little bullring where outcome is comparitvely less determined by speed than at a larger, faster track.

Ken Dobson
Jacksonville Speedway

 



Nick14
September 21, 2018 at 01:16:04 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
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Legitimate question as well, not sure how smart it would be or cost effective but, what if the walls were removed completely? Any safety improvements require an investment but some tracks may already have the equipment to remove the walls and great somewhat of a "run-off area" with a catch fence that catches (not instantly stops) the cars. I look at tracks like Attica Raceway Park or Lernerville where the walls are only on straightaway areas or several feet away from the racing surface and have some distance between the track and the barrier.

I know that not all tracks could do this due to location and some of the design of them but just thinking I guess outside the box. If the accidents are happening due to the cars making impact with something, maybe if we seperate take some of those objects away completely or move them away further it could make it safer. I have never been to BAPS before so I do not know the layout, but I have seen some tracks where, just from observation, I say to myself if the racing is at Point A and the Pits/stands are at point Point B, then why do you need a wall there in the first place?

Some tracks may need to eliminate stands or move them which would impact them or move advertising. No sure if it is practical or cost efficent versus "soft walls" or car redesign. Just my armchair, no money invested, non-engineering background, sad seeing drivers passaway, possibly stupid suggestion.



chathamracefan1
September 21, 2018 at 01:26:49 PM
Joined: 08/03/2008
Posts: 241
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Reply to:
Posted By: jax-webguy on September 21 2018 at 01:15:12 PM

Chathamracefan - I appreciate your thoughts and input and your outstanding support of our open wheel shows here in Central Illinois.  Stop me some night and I'll explain to you as well as any fan, driver or team our thinking regarding the area you mention or any other part of our facility from a safety standpoint.  Like anything, there are trade-offs and you look at each part of your track and ask if we did something different 'there' what would the effect be for different types of potential accidents.  

There for sure isn't a week - and rarely more than a day or two that goes by without us having a discussion amongst ourselves, with knowlegeable racers, with our insurance rep, with other track operators, or with concerned fans about infrastructure and safety.  I'm sure it's like that at almost every track in America.  It's a very common point of discussion and having had so many of them, I feel like I can answer "why" as to any aspect of our setup as it currently exists.  I feel like I should be able to explain to an injured driver or family member (or court if necessary) our thinking on "why" something was configured as it is if something bad were to happen.

Our track certainly isn't perfect from a safety standpoint.  No track is.  There are an unlimited number of ways a person could get hurt while racing at our facility.  What we try to do is evaluate what is going to happen if X occurs in a spot as currently configured vs what would happen if Y happend in that spot if redeigned instead.  Track safety is - and hopefully always will be - a work in progress.  Like most tracks, we have our list of improvements to make in the near term - which come on the heels of improvements earlier this year, and last year, and the year before that etc.  It doesn't end.

Yes, bad things will, can, and have happened on smaller tracks.  But I do regularly think about how fortunate I am that the track I grew up at down the street from where I live happens to be a little bullring where outcome is comparitvely less determined by speed than at a larger, faster track.

Ken Dobson
Jacksonville Speedway

 



I appreciate your response.  I didn't mean to cast stones & hope my thoughts were not taken that way.  I realize there is a tradeoff with all of these setup ideas.  The current setup does give guys an emergency option to avoid crashes going into 1 as well.  Maybe that is of more value & use than the risk of running off over the berm.  Also, hitting a wall (if one were added) is not always a bargain either.

Part of the point of my post was that there are lots of things to consider depending on track size, layout, surrounding area (available space for different options), etc.  

Also, I am an accountant by trade & know that cost has to be a consideration for all tracks.  I trust you guys have analyzed the options & are using what is best given all the parameters.  




jax-webguy
MyWebsite
September 21, 2018 at 01:27:18 PM
Joined: 07/03/2010
Posts: 102
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Reply to:
Posted By: Nick14 on September 21 2018 at 01:16:04 PM

Legitimate question as well, not sure how smart it would be or cost effective but, what if the walls were removed completely? Any safety improvements require an investment but some tracks may already have the equipment to remove the walls and great somewhat of a "run-off area" with a catch fence that catches (not instantly stops) the cars. I look at tracks like Attica Raceway Park or Lernerville where the walls are only on straightaway areas or several feet away from the racing surface and have some distance between the track and the barrier.

I know that not all tracks could do this due to location and some of the design of them but just thinking I guess outside the box. If the accidents are happening due to the cars making impact with something, maybe if we seperate take some of those objects away completely or move them away further it could make it safer. I have never been to BAPS before so I do not know the layout, but I have seen some tracks where, just from observation, I say to myself if the racing is at Point A and the Pits/stands are at point Point B, then why do you need a wall there in the first place?

Some tracks may need to eliminate stands or move them which would impact them or move advertising. No sure if it is practical or cost efficent versus "soft walls" or car redesign. Just my armchair, no money invested, non-engineering background, sad seeing drivers passaway, possibly stupid suggestion.



Nick14 - This will probably be my last reply before heading to the track to run a show tonight, but you raise an interesting question.   When we operated a track in Quincy, IL with no walls in the turns, cars would/could flip and lose energy without hitting anything before coming to a stop.  At that point you are trading the bad things that can happen by allowing the flip to continue and repeated impact/stress to the cage for no blunt objects for the car/cage to hit.  

We installed a new fence this year at Jacksonville.  We purposefully keep a thick layer of dirt on top of our wall.  But I was really tempted to put our fence at the bottom of the turn embankement and have no fence against the edge of the track so your first flip would basically be into the dirt embankement, yet there was a fence coming up to stop you to keep from having too many repeated impacts and rolls.   

It probably wasn't the best idea and I was quickly talked out of it.  But there's something I think to be said about having the first potential contact of the cage to be in dirt instead of a solild object.



jax-webguy
MyWebsite
September 21, 2018 at 01:30:17 PM
Joined: 07/03/2010
Posts: 102
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Chathamracefan - No offense taken.  I enjoy the constructive thoughts and discussion.  It's an important area and silence isn't the answer.  See you back here in a few weeks.



Zimmy00
September 21, 2018 at 01:43:36 PM
Joined: 07/21/2017
Posts: 13
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Reply to:
Posted By: rolldog on September 21 2018 at 12:30:09 PM

After looking at pictures of BAPS, it is easy to see how this accident happened.  Something breaks, the driver loses control and goes straight into the wall.  And this opening has been there for 50 years according to previous posters.

I have a hard time blaming the track owners/operators for Greg's death.  Easy to say this should have been changed but everyone should take a look at YOUR home track and say - 'are there any areas that need to be fixed' and put some pressure on the management and drivers to get the deficiencies fixed.

My home track is Eagle Raceway in Eagle NE.  It is well-run, races completed on a good schedule and has competitive classes.  However, there are 2 areas of the track that aren't the safest and maybe it is time for them to get fixed.  I've never contacted management about them but that's what I'm planning on doing this afternoon.  I will encourage other fans I know to do so as well.  But I don't want to do it out of anger, but because I care about the sport and I appreciate the drivers, crews and safety officials that provide such great entertainment.



Someone that gets it....




revjimk
September 21, 2018 at 03:49:29 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7595
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Posted By: tenter on September 21 2018 at 01:07:08 AM

I think the more realistic solution is for the drivers, as a group, to come up with a list of dangerous situations a track presents, and then meet with the track personel to discuss what needs done . Then set a reasonable time frame for the improvements to be completed , or else the drivers will not race until the improvements are completed. This should happen soon, since the tracks would have until next season to complete the necessary work. 



Best suggestion yet



revjimk
September 21, 2018 at 03:54:25 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7595
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Reply to:
Posted By: Nick14 on September 21 2018 at 01:16:04 PM

Legitimate question as well, not sure how smart it would be or cost effective but, what if the walls were removed completely? Any safety improvements require an investment but some tracks may already have the equipment to remove the walls and great somewhat of a "run-off area" with a catch fence that catches (not instantly stops) the cars. I look at tracks like Attica Raceway Park or Lernerville where the walls are only on straightaway areas or several feet away from the racing surface and have some distance between the track and the barrier.

I know that not all tracks could do this due to location and some of the design of them but just thinking I guess outside the box. If the accidents are happening due to the cars making impact with something, maybe if we seperate take some of those objects away completely or move them away further it could make it safer. I have never been to BAPS before so I do not know the layout, but I have seen some tracks where, just from observation, I say to myself if the racing is at Point A and the Pits/stands are at point Point B, then why do you need a wall there in the first place?

Some tracks may need to eliminate stands or move them which would impact them or move advertising. No sure if it is practical or cost efficent versus "soft walls" or car redesign. Just my armchair, no money invested, non-engineering background, sad seeing drivers passaway, possibly stupid suggestion.



I was wondering about that too....



JonR
September 21, 2018 at 04:57:01 PM
Joined: 05/28/2008
Posts: 872
Reply

I work in a manufacturing enviroment.  One of our safety moto's is "All accidents can be prevented."   It is a mindset.  Everyone that comes to work deserves to leave work in the same condition that they came to work in.  

Racing is a dangerous event.   It is one of the reasons that it draws drivers and fans to watch a race.   To see two drivers go side by side for laps dangerously close to touching but not.   Or two watch two cars trade sliders corner after corner, lap after lap.   Or to watch somebody rip the cushion and drive abound somebody down low.   These are all of the reasons that we come to the track.  With the potential that two cars could touch at any point but don't is part of the excitment.

Because we love the show, we will purposely put up with unsafe conditions.   In my mind, there are easy ones that can be done relatively quickly.   Jersey barricades/low walls with no fencing on them.  This is an easy fix.   Tracks with telephone poles in the fencing.  (yes, there are tracks that still have this)  This is an easy fix.   Tracks with catch fences that have been repaired so many times, that the fence has no integrity.   This is an easy fix.   Corner workers/ back straight flaggers on the track.  With emergency lighting improvements and Raceviers in the cars, why do we need any humans on the track?  This is an accident waiting to happen.  This is easy fix that could happen at almost all tracks tonight with no additional costs.   The same could be said about track photographers.   These guys are getting braver and braver and every once in a while you hear the story of the one that got too close.   They all should have a safe area and restricted to this area.   Not roaming the infield without any protection.   In my mind, all of these could be done in a matter of weeks/months.   With a couple of them happening tonight.

Track layouts are a much harder problem to fix.  This is one that needs more thought and design.   If land is not an issue, not having corner fences essencially solves this issue.   However, for most tracks, land is an issue.   For most tracks corner walls are common.  For most tracks the line up area is already the most congested area in the track.   We don't hear about it, but I would imagine that the number of injuries are greater in the line up lanes than on the track.   This is where a multi year approach.  Significant investment approach is needed.   

Once again, it comes back to my opening statement.   Safety is a mindset.   If you are willing to overlook it, it will always be an issue.   You need to document the issues and start working on them.   Do the easy ones first, and then work your way up to the harder ones.    





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