The answer right now is the 305s. That is the one class that is growing. It is the wrong answer.

Unlimited with less tire and wing is the right answer.

Fans would never be able to tell the difference except they would be called sprint cars again instead of 410s or 360s, and the racing would be better.

Brian Smith Heat Race In-Car Butler Motor Speedway SOD Sprints On Dirt 5/21/16:  https://youtu.be/gxc-NyELXTU

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

I don't think they are either but all those links are last years point standings. They don't lie. Hardly any 410s north of Pennsylvania in the northeast. Lots of limited sprints.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

The ESS show at Selinsgrove wasn't a point race for them (as in not even show up points). It doesn't make any sense to sanction a race and make it a non-point show , but that is the reason there weren't ny ESS cars there. If you are an ESS regular, why tow out of state for a show that isn't even a point race?

If the show would have been an ESS points race, there probably would have been 15-20 ESS cars there.

Well cubic Altman, if you don't think fans could tell the difference you are stupider than I ever thought.  Slowing 410's down by 3 seconds + per lap on a half mile IS NOTICEABLE! 

You think fans at Knoxville,  Williams Grove, and Eldora wouldn't be able to tell the difference? Heck, anyone can tell in time trials the guys who aren't fast enough to crack the top 10 before their times are even announced. 

Nobody is going to forget over 1 winter how fast a 410 looks on the track compared to a 305 or even a 360.

36 410's @ the Grove tonight!

I thought it was show up points but you may be right. Even still you would think a few teams would have wanted to race. This same race drew 33 cars last year, around 10 from NY. Hell with no Mark Smith or TJ Stutts, some of their top shoes might have had chance to win. Car counts this year seem to be varying greatly, much more than usual. 16 sprints at Port for the opener but solid fields of 26 and 30 last couple weeks. Grove had less than a full field for the opener and 36 tonight. Good trend for those tracks. 

A

Yeah for a used motor, it doesn't make much sense to buy a 360 or 305 unless that's all that runs in your area. However a 410 motor needs freshening more often than a 360 or 305 and that adds up quick and they generally don't last as many years. The back end of 410 purses don't pay much either unless it's a sanctioned show so in that case you may be able to do better running a 360 and having a chance at winning $1500-2000 instead of running at the back against the 410's and taking home $300. You see quite few guys moving up and giving the 410's a go for a year or two and then run out of money,  eventually returning to 358's, 360's or some other cheaper division. 

A

100% on the money. People would notice. Sprint car fans, even some who aren't as die hard as a lot of us who post on here, know their shit and if you slow them down by 3 seconds, it isn't gonna just fall through the cracks. Cubic much like Altman is so far consumed by his delusion, that engaging him, even with pure facts from people who know far better than he does (for example Terry McCarl) is a waste of time. He lives in an alternate reality that he created in his own head.

I'll be off watching bands, taking the wife out to dinner and binging on Netflix on Saturday nights.  Somebody let me know when "less wing" gets down to zero wing and I'll be back. 

Stan Meissner

You clowns are completely wrong. Fans can tell the difference the other way. UNLIMITED is better racing, cheaper and would get people to move up from the 360s instead of down to the 305s.

The only reality is you must be happy with limited sprints taking over the country. First the 360s. Now the 305s. You like things the way they are. I have been against them since the very beginning.

SOD Feature: Crystal Motor Speedway, 7-16-16

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Kudos to the 36 cars that showed up with $500.00 to start that should happen every time lets hope the 12 cars that did not make the show dont get discouraged. All Star show in two weeks should draw another strong field but next week will be a question.

After two races Dewease looks like he will be the class of the field again this year.

Dont understand why fans leave before 358 feature both last night and Susky were best features of the night.

Big deal. That was a pretty good race and on the same YouTube machine you used, you can also find a lot of videos of good WoO races as well as Central PA, Ohio, Knoxville, California etc. There's always been and always will be good and bad races. I am happy with the way things are for the most part. Isn't perfect but nothing is. The difference is, people like you and Bob Altman are never happy with anything. Always looking for something to bitch about instead of looking for things to be happy about.

Didn't start the thread. All I said 10 pages ago was the tires are too good and I have been defending my position to one clown after another that has come after me ever since. It is common sense. It was why late models are on 11" tires now instead of sprint car tires. It is why NASCAR, Indy Car and F1 don't have 20" wide tires. It is why SOD went to 13".  The racing suffers when they are stuck too hard and put too big a hole in the air, they get too expensive and they are more dangerous for competitors and fans.

I have already said it will never happen several times. Top teams want to keep things the way they are. Still doesn't make it right. They are wrong. They are the reason we have all these different limited sprints instead. SOD is right. Doty is right.

No big deal. A bunch of cars showed $500 to start at the Grove last night. It is still a shame tracks like Selinsgrove, Trailways, Susquehanna, etc, don't get to race them weekly as well. Not to mention 100 other tracks across the country. Fans love them. Just too expensive currently for most small businesses and garages to sponsor. Are still the greatest show on dirt. Still love them after 40 years. Awesome racecars.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

A couple days late for a resurrection here, but: 36 cars at the Grove, and mid-20's at both Port and Lincoln.Not bad.

Yeah the cold went away and the guys came out of their garages or finished up the cars. It was just a matter of time really.

Yeah, but you'd have 72 cars at the Grove and mid-40's at both Port and Lincoln if you idgits just got with cubicdonuts' 9" tires, 3x3 top wings and *unlimited!!!* engine rules. Long live the HBS series!

(Sorry man- the devil made me do it.)

I just came across this thread, so I apologize for being late to the party. I didn't plan on posting, but I see I've been mentioned a few times and I almost feel obligated. First off, I don't believe I know who Cubic is, nor do I keep track of everything he says on here. On this topic of increasing car count though, I have to agree with him. The SOD tire rule would definitely create an environment that would be beneficial to car owners as it pertains to engine costs. Which, I believe is the biggest factor in the dwindling car count. That's the whole reason the other divisions started in the first place, right?. To lower engine costs. I don't believe $15,000 for a top 305 and $40,000 for a 360 make sense as a cost saver anymore. They are just different classes where many times the bigger engines wins. If you want to win, you basically have to have an engine builder build you a killer. Car setup and driver skill matters less and less. Before I get flamed for just being a keyboard cowboy, I do have a fair amount of experience. I'm not a household name like Donny, but I have raced Sprints for over 25 years and have run a season  with the all stars, won a couple races at Attica over guys like Shaffer and Kemenah and won last years SOD championship. Most of the  races I've won have been on dry slick race tracks where the speed is slower. Which makes sense, since I still use a -12 motor that Davey Brown originally built in 1997. I'm able to freshen it each year for less than $6000 and I get 25-30 races out of it. That, by the way, keeps the 410 car count up because I'm just a working man who can afford to keep racing. I think many of the 305/360 guys would switch to 410's if they could compete for wins at  a much lower cost, and a smart tire rule would do that. 

 I don't believe that good racing comes from strictly from the highest speeds. As a matter of fact, I believe the best races happen on slicker slower tracks where guys have time to come from the back and pass cars. Don't get me wrong, I get it, the Outlaw type speed and power is impressive, but I'd much rather watch guys trade slide jobs at 20mph slower than a 140 mph locked down freight train. Most people wouldn't care about a 2 second a lap speed difference if the racing was excellent. 

As for why SOD hasn't greatly increased car counts, last year was the first year of the rule. The fact that they didn't lose car count after a major rule change in Michigan is quite positive. This year, I believe the count may improve. Time will tell. They have a decent pay structure and a better than average contingency program. 

Bottom line, racers are their own worst enemy. We always spend as much as we can and look out for ourselves without regard for the fans. In order to keep from eating ourselves alive, we need to cut engine costs and a SOD type tire rule is a great option. 

P.s.

I loved the last Goodyear tires. They lasted forever and good used ones were always readily available.

Looking for security? Try www.rssmonitoring.com 
Looking for eternal security? Try www.ohiograce.com

You can definitely tell the difference. Just from watching the videos you keep posting. I would not pay $15 to watch those, not a chance. If you can sit at Port Royal and watch 410s, and then 305s and not notice a difference then you must be blind. I'm not trying to be rude, and I understand the logic behind the argument but I just don't agree with this one. There is a reason a track like Trail Way gets a fraction the amount of the fans that Lincoln gets despite the fact they are basically in the same town. Its because the fans go to see the fast cars, they don't care as much about even the 358s (and these SOD cars would have to be even slower than those in order for 305s to be able to compete). It isn't as prolific in Sprint racing, but look what happens to tracks like Potomac, or Winchester on nights when they are not running SLM. Same track, same support divisions, same cost of admission, one night they will run SLM, and then the next week they run LLM and Crates and the crowd is less than half the size. That will happen with Sprints too. I'm not sure what the fix is, but I'm not sure this suggestion is it.

My .02.

Thanks,

Jeff.

Ask Bridgeport in NJ what happened to their crowds and fortunes, the year they dropped the Big Block Modifieds and tried running a Crate Modified class as the headline division.  That season almost doomed the track to closure until a new promotor stepped up the next year and brought the Big Blocks back.

Thanks much for your insight brian.  I'm surprised this board didn't crash after a such reasonable, honest post

A 1997 Davey Brown -12 motor  - that's just music to my ears. 

I don't wear the T shirts anymore but I'd buy yours. Thank you for making it work!