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Topic: Knoxville caution flags Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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railfan33
August 13, 2017 at 10:03:01 AM
Joined: 07/24/2010
Posts: 382
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McCarl causes a caution by knocking down a banner and is relagated to the rear. Tatnell causes a caution by knocking a cone onto the track and keeps his position. Are there different rules in the A and B? Was the cone in a place it shouldn't have been? 




RaceNut01
August 13, 2017 at 10:21:39 AM
Joined: 07/05/2017
Posts: 2
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Posted By: railfan33 on August 13 2017 at 10:03:01 AM

McCarl causes a caution by knocking down a banner and is relagated to the rear. Tatnell causes a caution by knocking a cone onto the track and keeps his position. Are there different rules in the A and B? Was the cone in a place it shouldn't have been? 



I think the difference was that McCarl's caution was caused by him coming to a stop (in reality he was rolling very slowly) on the track, not just because of the banner. Tatnell's was solely cone.



MoOpenwheel
August 14, 2017 at 08:55:28 AM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 460
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Posted By: RaceNut01 on August 13 2017 at 10:21:39 AM

I think the difference was that McCarl's caution was caused by him coming to a stop (in reality he was rolling very slowly) on the track, not just because of the banner. Tatnell's was solely cone.



I think you're likely right. But were they not going to throw a yellow for the banner laying on the track if TMac doesn't slow so much? 



alum.427
August 14, 2017 at 09:07:07 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 397
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why would they not throw a yellow for the banner ? if someone would have gone over it it may have caused a much larger issue.



rolldog
August 14, 2017 at 09:54:58 AM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 136
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I don't think T-Mac gets much for calls at Knoxville.  He has had some run-ins with the flagman and officials there and I don't think he gets the benefit of any calls these days.  And probably deservedly so.

I did think the officiating of the starts/re-starts was a little sketchy over the last week.  Several obvious infractions don't get called and then they throw the yellow for the guy in the last row???



MacTexas
August 14, 2017 at 10:07:27 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 101
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Posted By: rolldog on August 14 2017 at 09:54:58 AM

I don't think T-Mac gets much for calls at Knoxville.  He has had some run-ins with the flagman and officials there and I don't think he gets the benefit of any calls these days.  And probably deservedly so.

I did think the officiating of the starts/re-starts was a little sketchy over the last week.  Several obvious infractions don't get called and then they throw the yellow for the guy in the last row???



They were just trying to give more time for the car in the work area to be fixed.



FORD97
August 14, 2017 at 10:09:49 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1139
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There sure wasn't much to complain about with this year's Nationals, but the officiating was what I'll generously call inconsistent.


IBRACN: "page hits are page hits..."

MoOpenwheel
August 14, 2017 at 11:13:10 AM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 460
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Posted By: FORD97 on August 14 2017 at 10:09:49 AM

There sure wasn't much to complain about with this year's Nationals, but the officiating was what I'll generously call inconsistent.



I don't know what was said but Larson had a conversation with Doug Clark immediately after the Wed A main.  Speculation was it was about the horrid start that was allowed to go.  Austin McCarl took off way before polesitter Larson did.  However the starts did get much more scrutinized the rest of the week, both ways.

My only real complaint was the track surface wasn't good enough in Sat's A main.  The Duncan's do a great job.  They even tried to help it some before the start.  But it was easily the worst track of the week.  There was simply no bottom to work with the second half of the race at all.  It was one lane and that lane was treacherous to say the least.  A better track would have made for a much more interesting and fun race to watch.  



railfan33
August 14, 2017 at 11:48:05 AM
Joined: 07/24/2010
Posts: 382
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Still haven't heard a good reason for why Tatnell didn't have to go to the rear. His action of knocking the cone onto the track is why the caution flag was displayed. Doesn't matter whether or not he stopped on the track, he was the reason for the caution . Just trying to understand if there is a logical explanation why McCarl was penalized and Tatnell wasn't.



egras
August 14, 2017 at 12:05:17 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1733
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Posted By: railfan33 on August 13 2017 at 10:03:01 AM

McCarl causes a caution by knocking down a banner and is relagated to the rear. Tatnell causes a caution by knocking a cone onto the track and keeps his position. Are there different rules in the A and B? Was the cone in a place it shouldn't have been? 



Curious----------could the rulebook possibly state this?  And, could the track officials as well as Doug Clark know what the rulebook states?  And, knowing these rules, could they possibly make a judgement based on these rules?  I am going to leave that part of it up to them. 

Terry stopped.  He goes to the rear.  Had he not stopped, I doubt he goes to the rear even if the yellow flies for the banner.  That said, after ripping down the banner and pounding the wall, I don't think Terry keeping his spot makes a difference.  He's coming in for repairs. 

My guess would be if there is a rule where hitting the cone sends you to the back, Tatnell would have been put to the back. 



MoOpenwheel
August 14, 2017 at 12:09:41 PM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 460
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Posted By: railfan33 on August 14 2017 at 11:48:05 AM

Still haven't heard a good reason for why Tatnell didn't have to go to the rear. His action of knocking the cone onto the track is why the caution flag was displayed. Doesn't matter whether or not he stopped on the track, he was the reason for the caution . Just trying to understand if there is a logical explanation why McCarl was penalized and Tatnell wasn't.



The only logical explanation is whether the caution was for a car slowing or stopped on the track versus debris on the track.  TMac slowed enough to become a hazard.  Tatnell didn't.  Apparently it doesn't matter how debris gets on the track, no one gets penalized for it.  

The only issue was whether caution should have came out as soon as the banner got knocked on the track versus waiting until TMac became the hazard.  I honestly didn't see his incident happen.  But I thought he went around again before the yellow waved.  Anyone know?



blazer00
August 14, 2017 at 12:10:05 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1405
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Posted By: railfan33 on August 14 2017 at 11:48:05 AM

Still haven't heard a good reason for why Tatnell didn't have to go to the rear. His action of knocking the cone onto the track is why the caution flag was displayed. Doesn't matter whether or not he stopped on the track, he was the reason for the caution . Just trying to understand if there is a logical explanation why McCarl was penalized and Tatnell wasn't.



One thought does come to mind and it's just a thought. The cone was a part of the racing surface, and the banner being attached to the fence was not. I could see that as possibly making a difference. Plus it did appear as though McCarl was slowing to a stop, until the yellow was displayed, and then he seemed to accelerate away from the incident. The caution may very well have been to prevent anybody from getting in to McCarl at speed, which is the intent of most yellows.



rizzo the III
August 14, 2017 at 12:45:41 PM
Joined: 06/13/2005
Posts: 220
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Posted By: egras on August 14 2017 at 12:05:17 PM

Curious----------could the rulebook possibly state this?  And, could the track officials as well as Doug Clark know what the rulebook states?  And, knowing these rules, could they possibly make a judgement based on these rules?  I am going to leave that part of it up to them. 

Terry stopped.  He goes to the rear.  Had he not stopped, I doubt he goes to the rear even if the yellow flies for the banner.  That said, after ripping down the banner and pounding the wall, I don't think Terry keeping his spot makes a difference.  He's coming in for repairs. 

My guess would be if there is a rule where hitting the cone sends you to the back, Tatnell would have been put to the back. 



Terry did not stop.  Had tatnells cone flipped off the racing surface, it stays green.  But. In my mind, that was tatnells yellow, or they pull that cone back like the restart



vande77
August 14, 2017 at 01:05:15 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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I think you'll find many of those "suspect" starts Doug Clark wanted to call back but was told htey were "fine" on the radio headset.

I recall an instance on Wednesday or Thursday where Doug glared up to the scorer's booth while hte field went by and the start was allowed to stand instead of being called back.

All starts used to be Doug's call exlusively, but seems that has changed this past year.



dsc1600
August 14, 2017 at 01:13:53 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2139
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I love Knoxville, and they put on a great show, but this was a bad year for operational issues. 

- The scale issue was embarrassing and should never happen. 

- the starts until Friday were all over the place.

- the points tally nearly screwed McFadden from a pole start in the World Challenge. McFadden's gf in Australia found this error out and it was fixed, but that should never happen either.

i know there are thousands of things they do right, but these are easy fixes that should be on the top of their list to fix going forward.



MoOpenwheel
August 14, 2017 at 03:44:13 PM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 460
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Posted By: dsc1600 on August 14 2017 at 01:13:53 PM

I love Knoxville, and they put on a great show, but this was a bad year for operational issues. 

- The scale issue was embarrassing and should never happen. 

- the starts until Friday were all over the place.

- the points tally nearly screwed McFadden from a pole start in the World Challenge. McFadden's gf in Australia found this error out and it was fixed, but that should never happen either.

i know there are thousands of things they do right, but these are easy fixes that should be on the top of their list to fix going forward.



Its always easy to remember what went wrong.  

I'm a little surprised that McFadden himself didn't catch the mistake.  If I'm in race with those stakes see the lineup where I miss the invert by one spot I'm quite sure I'd tally my own points.

It would have been nice to know what happened with the scales.  I read the 39 was 9 lbs light somwhere.  Were ALL cars weighing less or was it just his?  If it were all I'm surprised several didn't get burnt considering how they are about weight.  If it was just his why was it just his.   



vande77
August 14, 2017 at 03:50:11 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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Only thing I saw regarding the scale was it was a diagnostic issue, so that tells me a computer glitch which doesn't mean it weighs everyone light (or heavy), it may just be a glitch when it weighs a certain weight (the scale should reay 1450.4995 lbs for example, but due to a glitch in the code, it spits out 1441.4995 lbs.  any other combination of #'s would spit out the correct weight.   It could happen that only one time in 1,000,000 that someone would hit that # that has the error.  Apparently 2 cars hit it.

It happens, and anyone that works with a computer daily knows it could happen.

 



MoOpenwheel
August 14, 2017 at 04:18:49 PM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 460
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Posted By: vande77 on August 14 2017 at 03:50:11 PM

Only thing I saw regarding the scale was it was a diagnostic issue, so that tells me a computer glitch which doesn't mean it weighs everyone light (or heavy), it may just be a glitch when it weighs a certain weight (the scale should reay 1450.4995 lbs for example, but due to a glitch in the code, it spits out 1441.4995 lbs.  any other combination of #'s would spit out the correct weight.   It could happen that only one time in 1,000,000 that someone would hit that # that has the error.  Apparently 2 cars hit it.

It happens, and anyone that works with a computer daily knows it could happen.

 



I work on computers for a living every day.  Diagnostic issue could mean anything.  For those who race and get to experience scales it would have been nice to have gotten a little more info for future reference.  



luvit
August 14, 2017 at 04:38:43 PM
Joined: 06/07/2009
Posts: 115
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Posted By: blazer00 on August 14 2017 at 12:10:05 PM

One thought does come to mind and it's just a thought. The cone was a part of the racing surface, and the banner being attached to the fence was not. I could see that as possibly making a difference. Plus it did appear as though McCarl was slowing to a stop, until the yellow was displayed, and then he seemed to accelerate away from the incident. The caution may very well have been to prevent anybody from getting in to McCarl at speed, which is the intent of most yellows.



Tatnell, hitting cone brings out yellow does not lose any spots while racing. McCarl hits fence, slows down and loses spots, banner falls down, yellow comes out. McCarl was placed in position he was in when yellow came out, not the position he was in before yellow came out.

 



egras
August 14, 2017 at 04:59:18 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1733
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Posted By: rizzo the III on August 14 2017 at 12:45:41 PM

Terry did not stop.  Had tatnells cone flipped off the racing surface, it stays green.  But. In my mind, that was tatnells yellow, or they pull that cone back like the restart



If Terry didn't stop, he slowed almost to a stop.  I remember him "sitting there" high in turn 4.  Whether he stopped or slowed to 5 mph, his car on the track not even close to race speed is what caused the yellow to come out.  Not the banner.  





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