Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

How has the tire thing been playing out.  We were getting updates from Florida and it seemed like it was fairly evenly split between the 16 inch and the 18 inch tire.  Has that changed at all, or are they still fairly close?  Has the size and/or quality of the track influenced the choices? 

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So far it seems like the 16" tire has been winning most of the races because it is softer and it rolls over more and has more side bite. The 16" tire is a 15 compound and the 18" wide tire is a harder 18 compound. They should have made the 16" tire shorter with a stiffer sidewall from the beginning.

None of the Hoosiers so far unhook a winged sprint car enough to increase engine longevity. The Spec Goodyear was harder and had a stiff sidewall. It actually did help. At least Hoosier did away with the H-R from last year that was so soft it wouldn't even last a feature.

Until they go smaller and harder like SOD is doing, or the late models already did, engine costs will continue to escalate. The Outlaws new heat race format that favors fast time to handicap Schatz, only exaserbates the problem that much more. The same with running taller wickerbills. It's like they are trying to pulverize grassroots 410 racing with no regard for engine cost containment.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Alan Krimes in this week's Area Auto Racing News:

"Every year or two they come out with something new," said Krimes. "If you don't have it, you can't compete with them, especially on bigger tracks. That's why we like running smaller tracks, the power doesn't affect you much."

At Lincoln, Krimes runs an older 12 head motor, something he said is 1990s technology.

"When the track is heavy we're behind at the Grove," said Krimes. "During time trials we're out to lunch. When it is slick and slow we have a chance."

Krimes said a new top of the line 410 engine could now cost $60,000.

"It's getting out of hand," said Krimes. "We didn't make $60,000 racing all of last year. It would take everything we made all of last year just to pay for a new engine. They need to do something, once you get up to $60-70,000 for a motor it's ridiculous."

He didn't, however, have an answer to the escalting cost. He remembered that a spec engine was once tried without success.

"I guess the guys with all the money don't want to change," said Krimes. "They can all out spend us little guys. The cars are plenty fast enough, why you want to make them faster is beyond me. It gets to the point where they are dangerous. They could cut them back."

-Just make them run smaller harder tires, limit wing angle and allow them to run cheaper HP unlimited CID engines like the late models.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Great info.  Thanks.

It will be interesting to see how the SOD thing plays out.  I hope it helps the have nots with a few hundred less HP than the haves.  We'll know more May 1.

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Better ask those Late Model guys how much their engines have went down in price (they haven't, they are just as (or more) expensive than the Sprint Car teams are spending) over the years by going to smaller and harder tires.

Labor and parts is what makes engines expensive.  If it takes 10 hours of labor to build an engine (I have no idea, I'm not an engine builder, it could take 40-50 labor hours for all I know) and your shop rate is $450 per hour, you have $4500 in labor charges without buying a single part to put an engine together.

Shop rates aren't going to get less, they are going to continue to increase because engine builders costs from vendors, insurance, utilities, etc. continue to increase. 

If the parts to put an engine together cost $25-30,000, the engine builder has that much into it, plus labor, plus overhead (building, machinery, G&A, etc., etc.).  I highly doubt the engine builders are making a killing on the $60,000 engines, are they turning a profit?  I hope so, there is no reason to be in business if they aren't.

Just a bit to add to that.  The top engine builders are putting in a tremendous ammount of time and R&D to find any little edge over the next guy, this costs a lot of money that isnt necessarily a billable line item on the invoice you get when you buy an engine. It has to be taken in to account though when the engine builder sells their engines and or services for that engine builder to recoup their spent money on R&D.  

yep, I don't think most understand that changing tires to be bricks (ie:  like old toy tires that were solid with no air) won't change a thing when it comes to engine expense.  They are going to continue to increase.

That said, can they do something to make tires last longer?  Probably, but the fact that multiple tracks and organizations allow teams to change tires during a race night instead of limiting them to one tire per night is the first change needed if they truly "care" about the race teams and how much it is costing them.  Heck, right now a tire only has to last 12-15 laps for a WoO show (gee, I wonder if they are bolting anything on other than the softest available??).  Make it so their tire has to last 40-50 laps a night and tire choice, set-ups and drivers will be come more of a factor again IMO.

I miss the old days of seeing Wolfgang with a McCreary RR, Goodyear LR and another brand on the front 2 wheels.....

I loved the old TNN broadcasts when they asked Karl Kinser what tire compound he went with, and he would just get a big grin on his face and say "Hopfully the right one"

Late model motors get rebuilt half as much as sprint car motors and their races are twice as long. Would be nice if National Open could be 100 laps again. Used to be 150.

If sprint cars went to SOD tire rule and 20 degree wing angle, Krimes wouldn't even worry about buying a new $60k motor. His -12 heads would be better. And he wouldn't worry about keeping under 410 CID. They would keep going until 430. Would be way cheaper. If someone wants to build a big block for the Grove or Port. Let them. They will just spin the tires and it will be a lot harder to be 1400 lbs. Cheap big block more cost effective than the high lift, high rpm, high compression, 10 race money pits they are running now anyway. Plus the fans would eat it up.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

It sucks that they burn through tires so quickly and they cost as much as they do, but the fan in me still wants to see those drivers driving as hard as possible every time they hit the track. I don't want them laying back in the heat to save their tires for the feature.

The best one Karl pulled with tires was the time he changed the right rear after the cars were in staging for the final feature of the Knoxville Nationals and they were going through all of the hoopla.  He knew all the other teams were watching to see which tire he was running so he threw them a curve ball.

watch a Late Model race on TV when they do an in-car camera shot.  Those guys never have (and never will) run the motors as hard as sprint cars do (even if they had 20 inch wide tires they wouldn't).

Their purses are also VERY top heavy and you see say more failures on their cars (and engines) than you do in Sprint Cars nowadays (even the top teams routinely drop out of races due to some mechanical failure, I have seen 30 late late model races that have had 7 of 24 starters finish the race).  it is very seldom you see that in sprint cars nowadays (even weekly shows where the pay is very poor in the back of the field I routinely see all 24 starters take the checker (unless they had a crash).

I have watched 100 lap Late Model races, and to me, that is the epitome of "biding your time" and the drivers admit it during interviews.  "just hoping we can stay on the lead lap when a caution comes out and then line up double file and get a few more cars and try again on the next restart" is common venacular.  They talk about saving their tires for the last 20 laps (then why have a 100 lap race at all?  just race 20).  My guess is that if they ran 30 lap features, they'd be rebuiding engines at the same rate sprint car teams do (they'd be running them harder everytime they are on the track as opposed to "just need to maintain my position until the caution comes out"

I've watched 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 and 50 lap sprint car races.  No one is ever biding their time and "waiting for a caution".  If they do, they'll be a lap down or more.

As far as cost effectiveness goes.....they is no cost effectiveness in racing no matter what the division.  I've seen guys spend $12,000 building a hobby stock to race for $200 to win, seen Modifieds spend $50,000+ for $1000 to win, Sprint Cars are spending $75.000+ (1 car, engine, no spares) to race for $3000 (or less) to win.  NASCAR teams spending $20 million per season for races that pay $200,000 to win (even if you win all 36, that only comes to $7.2 million in race winnings).  Indy Car teams are spending $3-5 million per year for races that pay $20,000 to win (outside of Indy, it doesn't pay to show up). 

Team owners are their own worst enemies.  They complain about it costing so much, but they spend the $$ or lobby for rule changes (that benefit their team and who cares about others and even the small teams do this, they lobby to allow the use of different wheels, tires, wings so they can buy used parts from someone, then complain when a big team buys all new of those same parts and beat them with it).

Krimes is already running a 20 year old -12 motor with some success. If you went to smaller harder tires and a wing angle rule he would easily be able to keep running it, instead of worrying about buying a new $65,000 motor.

Brad Doty

It was an eye-opener to some when they compared the right rear tire of a late model to that of a sprint car (at the Vault World Finals).

The right rear tire of the late model is considerably smaller in circumference and width. The late model also weighs twice as much as a sprint car, but yet, uses half the tire.

At one time the late models had wedge bodies and plexiglas wings and sideboards all over them and they also used a big soft floppy right rear tire. When they finally outlawed the wedge bodies and went to the harder and smaller tire, the racing arguably got a whole lot better. Those who have been advocating for smaller and harder tires for sprint cars say that something could be learned from the late models.

I've had an ongoing argument/debate with a couple of drivers who want to solely blame the racetrack when, on occasion, the racing isn't what we hope it would be. If it weren't for the late model race, where they were passing, I'm sure those guys would still say it was the fault of the racetrack and that it "was too fast" and not slick enough for the sprint cars. But the argument goes right out the window when the late models were able to pass and put on a good race on the same racetrack.

Lance Dewease

Dewease thinks the problem is easily solved. "The late models went through this years ago," Dewease said. "They had a big right rear and had all these wedges to put in the car, and it was too easy to go fast. We have the same problem. They went to a narrow tire and unhooked the cars and now, they have to race."

"That's what we need to do. The tires have gotten so good, that we need to go to a smaller tire."

Jeff Swindell

"I didn't see a big problem when we had to put on the 16" (wide right rear tire) for the ASCS show. I think 16" is a move in the right direction, but it plain and simply is not enough. The tire companies will probably freak out on this, but I believe we need to cut the left rear width back to around 12" to help take some of the drive out of the car. Less tire, less power needed."

Roger Slack, General Manager of Eldora Speedway

"At the end of the day people sitting in a room are not going to be able to make these decisions. These race cars are so fast, so aero dependent, we have to make the commitment to get them into wind tunnels and see what is really happening with these cars. What is happening with the air when they are sideways. When the wings are at different angles. All sorts of things. The aerodynamics on these cars are like a formula one car, and we can say we are just dirt racers, and this, this and this. But these cars and dirt late model cars are extremely sophisticated race cars. We have to be honest with ourselves and we’ve got to make the investment and figure some things out for the places that are having trouble passing. To blame it on the race tracks and have the race tracks slow the cars down to the point where it becomes a dust storm for the fans. That is not fair to the fans. That is not going to put butts in seats."

Brad Doty is also a proponent of a wing angle rule...

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

one think about Roger Slack's comments is blaming the track and having the race track slowing down the cars to where it be comes a dust storm, you dont need to slow the cars down have a track that has 2 lanes and the track will slow down as the night goes on, you have it a dust storms in the heat race equals rubber down tracks and bad racing. just look at knoxville they have good racing and they dont have any dust storms. the tracks just need to do there part like knoxville does. 

And all the winners this year on the outlaw tour have had H15 H20 tires on.

Unlimited sprint cars because with small tires a 360 will run right with a 410...

Link: Testing Proves 2016 Sprints on Dirt Tires Meet All Expectations

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

when one of those 360 teams race against a WoO team (and both teams use those tires) and are competitive it will be the first time they were....   Never heard of either of these teams (and if they've raced with the WoO (with a 410), were they competitive?  My guess is they weren't, so they are comparing a non-competitive 410 engine against a 360.

When you slow the 410s down to the point a 360 can run with them then you will see a drop off in crowds. Knoxville fans have never really supported a 360 only show. The 360 nationals do well only because they are part of 9 races in 10 days. I can't see people coming out to see slow 410s racing with 360s. It may increase car counts but it will hurt ticket sales. And when the 410 guys need a new motor won't they just buy a 360 instead? Cheaper! 

And with the cars that unhooked and lose the moves that make the fans hold their breath will not happen.

And were  the 410s at that test cars that could run up front anywhere or just some SOD guys.

Fans would eat up unlimited sprint cars with the best drivers from all the different classes competing against each other, and having low buck heroes again. There is no difference from having to slick off the race track to make them racy and unhooking the tires.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

If the tire test had been with Lasoski  in his 410 car vs Kerry Madsen in his car with a 360 it would mean a lot more. I don't think those guys doing the test would be considered the "best drivers" anywhere outside a SOD  show.

I don't know why you are making a big deal about what SOD does. You know central Pa will always let the WoO write their rules for them.

I like reading these posts about how to fix 410 winged sprint car racing and compairing it to the super late models. The board cars did the same thing as the winged sprints do now. Wing over on the left rear on turn entry and and on the left rear on exit. Once they removed the side boards, the cars got tight on entry and no forward bite. That is why they went to the 4 bar cars and the rear end tuck under on the left rear when on the throttle. It puts the right side of the car into the wind. Their engines are 428 to 450 Cubic inch motors less RPM turned less rebuilds. Also with out the board to lay on you have to "Oh no not that word" LIFT when going into the turns, even when the track is tacky during the heat races...

It's the 9500 RPM turned on the 410 sprint motors that cause all the problems. If it was keeped to say 8200 to 8500 RPM less rebuilds. The other thing I keep saying is the side boards on the wings. Like the Board or wedge cars aka late models, with the car winged over you can almost flat foot it into the turns in the heats.

It's funny you take the same sprint car with out the wings and it's 1 1/2 to 2 seconds a lap slower with the same driver same night.

It's also funny you talk to drivers that the week before ran with a wing most run off the top of turn 1 or turn 3. Why no side board to make the car loose on entry. So what do you do move the right rear out from 16 inches to 18 1/2 to 20 inches.