Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I saw this and thought I would share.  The fastest lap of all time (by average MPH) at any track in WoO series history with an average speed of 145.527 MPH.

https://altdriver.com/racing/paul-mcmahan/

I enjoy looking at lap speeds from track to track as sometimes you think one track seems faster than another, but then you find out it's not what you expected.

However in a lot of cases, average speeds are actually relative to what the track owner/promoter say their track size is.

In this case, the track was advertised as a 5/8 mile track, but it's actually a .52 mile track - which skews reality by a substantial amount. 5/8 = .625, vs the actual .52. 

Actual track lengths are really quite easy to confirm by using Google Earth. By using the 'ruler' function in about a minute to can get true lengths to any of your favorite tracks.  I always use the typical groove of each track - which actually makes the distance longer than 'the pole.' I believe NASCAR measures tracks '6 feet up from the pole' - - - but in each case it does increase the track length from if you were to measure it literally from the bottom edge of the track. (In other words, if you measure Rolling Wheels from the very bottom of the track it would be less than .52 miles.

Here's a link to this one in particular.

https://earth.google.com/web/search/Rolling+Wheels+Raceway/@43.01577584,-76.49451447,175.42141489a,630.35514361d,35y,-0h,0t,0r/data=CigiJgokCTF9hRg1AzVAES59hRg1AzXAGRTlLOKKkSdAIQiF5TyUx1bA

Once you know the lap time (and the actual track length), you can plug in the following formula below. Some of the below lap times may have changed since I posted this info previously on hoseheads...but this helps give you actual speeds - not reported speeds:

(This conversation is actually from a while back, but posts like these resurface from time to time, so the following is a copy/paste, which also provides the formula to calculate MPH - once you know the actual track distance):

PART 1:

I pulled up the Google Earth views of various race tracks; then used their 'ruler' tool to determine the actual length of each track I visited.

Again, this in no way is meant to be 'the' actual length if you were to hire someone to go out an do it, but it uses some pretty cool science to provide you with the information.

It's actually really easy (and fun) to use too.

Here's what Google Earth determined the following tracks I plotted out measured (and each was measured basically in the center of the racing surface all the way around, NASCAR measures theirs by 15' from the outside wall according to online sources (which would make their lengths slightly longer in most cases below)...for whatever that is worth):

Knoxville Raceway - .51 miles
Jackson Speedway - .50 miles
Devil's Bowl - .44 miles
Eldora Speedway - .43 miles
LoneStar Speedway - .40 miles (pre reconfiguration), .33 miles (post-reconfiguration)
KSP - .28 miles
Cowtown - .26 miles (I was surprised by this, I thought it was a tick smaller)
RPM Speedway - .25 miles

Anyway, if you find yourself needing a break and want to create your own or check out some of the cool features of the software, just click the link above. It's a quick install...again, and free. Plus it has a cool 'tour' button that gives you an animated sweeping view of the property mapped.

It could also be used to provide an assist when trying to figure out gearing for a racetrack - as sometimes what you think the track length is, might actually be different.

Then, to take the analysis a bit further, assuming you are running in the middle of the track (which is where I plotted the points on the maps above), you can then plug in your lap times into the following equation to figure out your average MPH:

(Lap Time) / 3600 = X

Now divide your track distance in X (above) to get your average MPH.

In other words, using the Jackson info above (since it's easy = .50 miles), if your lap time is 15 seconds, you divide that by 3600 (the number of seconds in an hour) and you get = .00416667; then take the track distance of .50/.00416667 = 119.999mph.

PART 2:

Furthering the discussion, based on the formula above and documented track records* on select tracks that I've plotted, here's how it translates into MPH:

Knoxville Raceway - .51 miles 14.407...Brooke Tatnell May 6, 2006
OLD Jackson Speedway - .50 miles 15.795- Track record by Terry McCarl in time trials on September 23, 2005
Devil's Bowl - .44 miles Joey Saldana 13.366 (WoO)
Eldora Speedway - .43 miles Craig Dollansky 12.707 4/13/02
LoneStar Speedway - 13.05- Track record established by Danny Lasoski in 2002 (.40 mile configuration)

*note these track record documents were as of 2013, not 2014; so if there was a NTR in 2014 at any of these tracks, it's not adjusted for that.

Again, based on those Google Earth plotted points around the center of each track; here's how the numbers above shake out on a MPH basis:

Knoxville - 14.407 / 3,600 seconds = .00400472; so .51 miles / .00400472 = 127.35mph average speed.

Jackson - 15.795 / 3,600 seconds = .0043875; so .50 miles / .0043875 = 113.96mph average speed.

Devil's Bowl - 13.366 / 3,600 = .00371278; so .44 miles / .00371278 = 118.51mph average speed.

Eldora Speedway - 12.707 / 3,600 = .00352972; so .43 miles / .00352972 = 121.822mph average speed.

LoneStar Speedway - 13.05 / 3,600 = .003625; so .40 miles / .003625 = 110.44mph average speed (again, old configuration).

Obiously, on any given night, the cushion at any track can be lower or higher than the middle, which would affect the distance plotted; so again, this isn't a scientific conclusion. Just more less for comparison purposes.

PART 3:

And here are the results from the Dirt Track at Texas Motor Speedway.

It's always been advertised as a 4/10 mile track...and the Google Earth plotting would tend to agree with that, as it came out at .40 miles around the middle groove.

That being said, the track record was set by Daryn Pittman on March 29, 2001 at 12.276 seconds. (I was actually at that race and the day before it literally rained 5" in DFW and they got out the jet dryer and worked the track all day to get the race in, and it was the most intense speed I've ever seen anywhere, as the surface was literally glue from bottom to top and I swear dirt didn't even fly that night, it was just one big fly trap - and some of the crashes were scary as hell. I've never seen a track surface like that ever since.)

Texas Motor Speedway: 12.276 / 3,600 = .00341; so .40 miles / .00341 = 117.30mph average speed.

Yea the real sprint car record is at Syracuse and will never be broken. This Rolling Wheels "record" is nonsense as was explained above. 

Hey Dman, I remember you putting that information out before on another thread.    With Devils Bowl some things have changed since then.   At some point I think they reshaped turn two.   I think the WoO has the track at .425 now.   Don't hold me to that though.   One thing I do know for sure is that Jason Johnson lowered the track record a good bit, I believe in early 2018.   

The fastest lap ever turned by a WoO's sprint car was at Springfield, Illinois on the famous Springfield Mile! Sammy Swindell was at the wheel for this historic lap which took place on June 7, 1998. He covered the 1 mile distance in 24.719 seconds which figures out to a 145.637 MPH average. Sammy's lap is considered to be the fastest lap ever turned on a dirt track.

There are those who say the time and MPH numbers are incorrect due to the belief that The Springfield Mile is, in reality, longer than a mile in distance. I've measure Springfield with Google Earth and it does measure longer than a mile but the official numbers are what I posted above.

Good stuff in this discussion to everyone posting.

I just spot checked the DB configuration just now and this time I got .42 miles in length in the groove, so it appears it is a tick shorter than in 2014 when I figured out the math last time.

I just pulled this off the WoO site and it shows:

Track Length: High-banked, 1/2 mile
Sprint Car Track Record: Jason Johnson -- 13.306 (4/27/18)

But at .425 mile (which translates into a 17/40th mile track...LOL...but it does), that means the average MPH is 114.985.

And to LVDRTMLS, the groove comes out a S-field to 1.04 miles, and at 24.719 seconds, the MPH is actually even higher than you posted, which is 151.46. 

It'll be interesting next year to see lap times at Bristol between one division and another.

What track has the fastest time(et) for one lap, any size of course the smaller the quicker..  I'll throw River Cities in Grand Forks, ND in the mix.  Ten years ago Jason Meyers ran a 9.269 second lap in qualifying at an average speed of 116.17.  It had rained all week and they were desperate to not cancel it and spent a lot of time working the track for two long days.  The track was very very very tacky all night.  Johnny must have said, "a new track record ladies and gentlemen" 5 or 6 times.  I think 8+ cars broke the old track record.  Tells you what a tacky track can do for those big back tires.  And lots of huge wheel stands coming out of 2 and 4.  It is a 1/3rd mile  high banked track.  And that distance is pretty accurate.

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For as often as the ridiculous Rolling Wheels (N.Y.) speed claims gets repeated on here, this board could use a sticky thread explaining that Rolling Wheels is not really a 5/8 mile.

And the fastest really is Damion Gardner. 211.58844. Bonneville Salt Flats. Without a wing even. Beat that!

I really appreciate all the work you've done here, and I hate to be that guy but your track record for Jackson is outdated as you feared it might be. The old big track record was set by Kerry Madsen on July 28, 2017 at 15.108. Using your calculations I do think that the new average speed there would be just a hair under 120 mp/h average speed. It is interesting that google maps doesn't have an updated image of the track since the shortening, so we kind of have to guess at the average speed. 

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DakotaKid - most certainly the new configuration is a lower lap time but it usually takes a while before google maps catches up to changes.

With Jackson being my hometown track as a kid I'm really excited about the changes they've made there and it will be interesting to see what the actual length it. It certainly looks as advertised, as it's still big in terms of most tracks.

Thanks for your reply!

A while back someone posted the actual measured length of Central PA Speedways. I am saving this calculation in my phone and it would help if someone knew what those measurement were and could please repost them here.

"I was so loose out there that  could hardly get back
in line for the restart", Bobby Allen circa 1996 (?)
*****************************************************
"I'm not a driver, I am a racer." Steve Smith 19, 1992 

Poster BigRightRear is who measured the tracks (I assisted with several). It was done with a measuring wheel after the racing in the racing groove (below the cushion). The T# is turn number and speed with radar gun (pretty much at the end of the straightaway prior to setting the car. So take it as a 'top' speed. 

Lincoln (PA) 1845 ft/ .35 mile T1= 118 MPH

Eldora 2287 ft./ .43 mile T3=135 MPH

Port Royal 2716 ft/ .51 mile 

William Grove 2792 ft/ .53 mile T3=135 MPH

Selinsgrove 2847 ft/ .054 mile T1=136 MPH

Interesting stuff and I would guess Port would be higher now with the changes made. We measured Knoxville also but I don't recall the number and I thought it was longer than the Grove and similar to Selinsgrove.