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Topic: Lapped cars racing the leaders Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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Hooper31
February 11, 2020 at 10:29:17 AM
Joined: 09/03/2017
Posts: 364
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Seems a slippery slope asking drivers not to compete at all times. 




egras
February 11, 2020 at 10:44:05 AM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 3914
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Posted By: on at


I don't have a problem with a car on the tail end of the lead lap racing the leader hard.  If a yellow or red is thrown, that driver could remain on the lead lap and pick up another spot or 2 on the next restart.  

 

However, once the leader has cleared, there is no reason to race 2nd, 3rd and so on as if it is for position.  Let em go.  



dsc1600
February 11, 2020 at 03:00:02 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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To be fair Marks was running ok, like 12th so he may not have realized the leader passed him right away. Usually when you're running near the top 10 you don't get lapped. 




SprintFan16
MyWebsite
February 11, 2020 at 04:05:29 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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This post almost seems contradictory. The reason racing gets good in lapped traffic is because it slows the leader up and it's typically because cars are racing the leaders, or at least holding them up so they can't get around. 

I've always been under the impression that as long as you're consistently racing your line and keeping it clean, then you have no duty to let anyone by. 



egras
February 11, 2020 at 07:25:31 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 3914
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Posted By: SprintFan16 on February 11 2020 at 04:05:29 PM

This post almost seems contradictory. The reason racing gets good in lapped traffic is because it slows the leader up and it's typically because cars are racing the leaders, or at least holding them up so they can't get around. 

I've always been under the impression that as long as you're consistently racing your line and keeping it clean, then you have no duty to let anyone by. 



I agree----it shouldn't be your duty to let someone by.  However, when they start racing like it is for the win, that is different.  Holding your line and making clean----that's all fine.  But, if you're a lap car racing the leader like Jason Johnson raced Schatz at the Nationals in 2016 (which I loved BTW) that is a different kind of racing the leader.  We've all seen it before.  When the leaders have to start checking up because of banzai moves from lap cars, that's where it gets a little in the gray for me.  



Nick14
February 11, 2020 at 07:55:10 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
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Posted By: egras on February 11 2020 at 07:25:31 PM

I agree----it shouldn't be your duty to let someone by.  However, when they start racing like it is for the win, that is different.  Holding your line and making clean----that's all fine.  But, if you're a lap car racing the leader like Jason Johnson raced Schatz at the Nationals in 2016 (which I loved BTW) that is a different kind of racing the leader.  We've all seen it before.  When the leaders have to start checking up because of banzai moves from lap cars, that's where it gets a little in the gray for me.  



Like you said, we have all seen some be a little overly aggressive when they know they are about to be lapped. We have all seen on some occasions someone get lapped and then the next turn pull a huge slider to where the leader most likely will have to check up, cross over then going down the straight away side by side the lapper will then crowd the leaders entry.

Throwing sliders that leave the person room to make a move is fine to me, but when you basically start "blocking" then it starts going over the top. Then when they start racing 2nd & 3rd place like that is when it really is ridiculous.




Johnny Utah
February 11, 2020 at 08:56:20 PM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 1221
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https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



egras
February 12, 2020 at 06:31:32 AM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 3914
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Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 11 2020 at 08:56:20 PM

https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



Wow, great example.  I don't know what to think on this one.......I'm kinda torn.  He raced him 90% clean I thought---maybe made him check up once slightly, but he didn't try to take the front end off.  He was the first car a lap down-----but then again, there were few laps remaining in the race.  He definitely cost McFadden the win, no doubt.  

 

Not sure which way to go on this one.  Guess I would have to lean towards the lapper having the right to defend the lead lap from the leader as long as he does it cleanly.  I guess it depends on how clean everyone thought this defense was.  If it had been the 1st and 2nd place cars going at it like this, it would have been considered fantastic racing.  

 

What do you think Johnny?



Johnny Utah
February 12, 2020 at 03:53:27 PM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 1221
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Posted By: egras on February 12 2020 at 06:31:32 AM

Wow, great example.  I don't know what to think on this one.......I'm kinda torn.  He raced him 90% clean I thought---maybe made him check up once slightly, but he didn't try to take the front end off.  He was the first car a lap down-----but then again, there were few laps remaining in the race.  He definitely cost McFadden the win, no doubt.  

 

Not sure which way to go on this one.  Guess I would have to lean towards the lapper having the right to defend the lead lap from the leader as long as he does it cleanly.  I guess it depends on how clean everyone thought this defense was.  If it had been the 1st and 2nd place cars going at it like this, it would have been considered fantastic racing.  

 

What do you think Johnny?



I picked that one because, as you said, I think its a close call. In the end, I thought it was good, hard racing.




revjimk
February 12, 2020 at 05:14:33 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7595
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 11 2020 at 08:56:20 PM

https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



Good race! #12 was kind of blocking at times, but with no rear view mirror, hard to tell what he was thinking. I don't think he did anything blatantly wrong

I wish Greg Hodnett was still with us.... frown



RodinCanada
MyWebsite
February 12, 2020 at 06:31:29 PM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 1720
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To me it gets kind of muddy, if the leader has to work his tail off cause a lapped car wants to stay on the lead lap that may be acceptable but if the same lapped car lets 2nd and 3rd drive by cause the lap is already lost, that puts the leader at a great disadvantage, or an advantage to 2nd and 3rd.


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

fiXXXer
February 12, 2020 at 07:00:27 PM
Joined: 10/26/2014
Posts: 2475
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 11 2020 at 08:56:20 PM

https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



I miss Greg Hodnett




Nick14
February 12, 2020 at 08:01:09 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 11 2020 at 08:56:20 PM

https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



Overall I'm ok with the way the 12 races him. For the most part he crossed over and tried to get to where the best line was. Although the 55 checked up, I don't think the 12 was intentionally crowding him. Plus the 747 was there too & the 12 was racing for position with him.

Can be a bit of a grey area, and I think a situation like this most of the time comes down to who wins or who's blocking on if it upsets anyone. If a lap car holds up a fan favorite & someone like Schatz passes them for the win people will be up in arms. If a lapper is racing Schatz like that and a fan favorite wins, then it's ok he was just trying to stay on the lead lap. If a fan favorite blocks it's ok. If it's a non fan favorite he's an asshole



hardon
February 13, 2020 at 01:04:03 AM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 485
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 11 2020 at 08:56:20 PM

https://youtu.be/HR2FMh8BRho

Here's an interesting case study about lap traffic racing the leader.

The scene is 2013 at Grandview. Click the link and you be the judge.



Good example.  For me, I've always thought that it's up to the leader to get by the lapped car.  I don't think that lapped traffic should just get out of the way.  However I think they should just run their line when the leader is around.  If they've been running the top, just keep running the top all the way around, if they're running the bottom, stay on the bottom and leave at least a lane and a half for the leader to go around on the straitaway.  Assuming the 12 car knew he was being lapped I think he was out of line here.  When a driver does a "slide job", I've always thought it was about making it more difficult for the car you were trying to pass?  The car getting passed has to either check up or change lines to avoid running into the car passing them.  Maybe I'm wrong but I've always thought that was a big part of the "slide job"?  I guess I'm a little old school here but I've never been a fan of slide jobs even when they were for position, but everyone does it and I'm not a driver so it doesn't really matter what I think.  But I do think a lapped car doing "slide jobs" to the leader is uncalled for.  The other thing I didn't like is one time he exited out of 2 on the bottom and then drove up to the wall going down the straitaway which caused McFadden to have to check up.  Then after McFadden cleared him he still tried another "slide job" and then drove up in front of him going down the back strait away.  

I guess what bugs me is what did the 12 car really have to gain by doing this?  I'm sure there isn't much difference money wise between runing 16th or 17th or whatever the possitions were.  The good news is, I don't think it's a huge problem, at least from what I've seen.  Probably because most drivers realize when they're getting lapped, it's not their night, the best thing to do is get the race over with and ROLL the car in the trailer.  The other reason I would guess it's not usually a big deal, is karma.  I'll bet if McFadden is getting lapped by that 12 car at some point it won't be an easy pass for him either.

However if the 12 car genuinely thought he was racing him for position, then I agree with what he was doing.



IADIRT
February 16, 2020 at 05:30:15 PM
Joined: 04/29/2014
Posts: 1204
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Let them race. If your not faster than a lap car I'm sure someone else coming behind is. Traffic is often what makes the racing good just don't leave them there for the restarts. They don't want to be there, the people starting behind don't want them there, and the fans don't want them there!




newbeevur
February 16, 2020 at 09:26:26 PM
Joined: 12/03/2004
Posts: 483
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Excellent racing from Grandview!

I don't have an issue with it but like someone pointed out most races these days pay the same from about 15th thru last so I don't see the purpose of racing a leader like that when there is virtually no monetary gain for doing so. 

Looked like a great crowd and pretty full stands for this event, do most of the Thunder in the Hills get a full house?

How do the 410 crowds compare to their regular Saturday night modified show crowds?


The worst president of my lifetime:
Ronald Reagan

NWFAN
February 22, 2020 at 06:01:23 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hooper31 on February 11 2020 at 10:29:17 AM

Seems a slippery slope asking drivers not to compete at all times. 



agree compldtely, that;s why they call it RACING !!!!!


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

NWFAN
February 22, 2020 at 06:06:13 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
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Posted By: NWFAN on February 22 2020 at 06:01:23 AM

agree compldtely, that;s why they call it RACING !!!!!



Racing sprint cars is not for "PUSSIES", let em' all race...


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...


Johnny Utah
February 23, 2020 at 01:53:04 PM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 1221
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Posted By: newbeevur on February 16 2020 at 09:26:26 PM

Excellent racing from Grandview!

I don't have an issue with it but like someone pointed out most races these days pay the same from about 15th thru last so I don't see the purpose of racing a leader like that when there is virtually no monetary gain for doing so. 

Looked like a great crowd and pretty full stands for this event, do most of the Thunder in the Hills get a full house?

How do the 410 crowds compare to their regular Saturday night modified show crowds?



Yeah, they pack the stands for the Thunder on the Hill shows. Its more crowded than on an average Saturday night.



Hooper31
March 01, 2020 at 10:42:26 AM
Joined: 09/03/2017
Posts: 364
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For anyone that watched the Lucas Oil 360 ASCS event last night they got to see Thomas Kennedy get in the way of the leaders and he wouldn't come close to letting anyone get by. 

In the post race interview Sam Hafertepe called "bullshit" on it. He said both he and Sanders showed him a nose multiple times. 

Was probably the best finish to a race I've ever seen for a track that took serious rubber. Several lead changes and Hafertepe ended up winning by a nose. I think the argument could be made that Kennedy's stubborness made it way more exciting for the fans. 





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