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Topic: Time Trial Proposal for the Knoxville Nationals
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August 16, 2015 at
11:44:10 PM
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At the risk of drawing the wrath of all those from this forum opposed to any change in the Nationals , I would like to offer a suggestion for scoring at the Nationals. It was common to hear people talk about the timing discrepancies between those who timed early and those who timed in late on Wednesday and Thursday of this year's nationals. Here is data from this year's qualifying nights. The average position of the first ten cars to time on Wednesay was 15.4. The average position of the last ten cars to time on Wednesday was 33.8. Seven of the last ten to time timed 31st or worse. Of the top ten times, five of them came from the first ten to time trial. Only Paul McMahan broke into the top ten from the last ten to time.
On Thursday, Kevin Ingle was the first to time in and timed 55th out of 57. The next ten to time, however, averaged to time in at 14.8. The last ten to time averaged to finish at 41.3. The best time of the last ten to time was turned in by Billy Alley who timed in 27th.
IF you look at the top ten times from each night (a total of 20 drivers), only Paul McMahan came from the last ten cars to time. Only one!! Eight of the 20 came from the first ten cars to time.
I am not proposing to eliminate time trials. What I am proposing is softening up their impact. Currently, there is a two point gap between each position. Using the averages above, the final ten to time on Wednesday were giving up 18.4 spots (33.8-15.4) which equals almost 37 points to those in the top ten just because of the luck of the draw. On Thursday, the gap was wider, as the last ten to time, gave up an average of 26.5 spots or 53 points to their competitors who had the good fortune to draw one of those first ten timing spots. A deficit that large is pretty hard to overcome and is due in large part to the luck of the draw.
A possibile solution? Decrease the point differential between each time trial spot to one point instead of the traditional two points. I would propose that the three point differential in the heats and the two point differential in the features remain. This would soften the impact of being on the wrong end of the draw, and put more emphasis on the heat races and features. Best of all, this wouldn't change the format of the Nationals at all, most fans wouldn't even notice there was a change.
This would increase the fairness of the event which I think most would agree is important at any sporting event.
Now I am interested to see how many in the forum tear this one apart.
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August 16, 2015 at
11:55:21 PM
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the Nationals have always been about perfection. Don't change what isn't broke.
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August 17, 2015 at
12:23:30 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: dollansky_7_fan on August 16 2015 at 11:55:21 PM
the Nationals have always been about perfection. Don't change what isn't broke.
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It's not about perfection anymore...there's 4 guys who get a second chance on friday. You can screw up on wed/thurs and still have another shot ( some get two shots with the world challenge ).
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August 17, 2015 at
12:25:15 AM
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I think it's definitely something worth discussing. Just look at the A lineup locked in after qualifying night.
15 (15th car out qualifying night) - 29 (11th)
7 (10th) - 71M (8th)
49 (12th) - 2 (38th)
51 (46th) - 24 (36th)
41 (34th) - 93H (2nd)
1B (5th) - 16 (51st)
1Z (25th) - 21 (29th)
9 (54th) - 24R (41st)
The top five starters all went out in the first 15 cars on their qualifying night. Average qualifying number is 26.5.
I understand that it balances a bad qualifying time by giving better starting spots but there was definitely an advantage in going out early this year, on both nights. I think Shane Stewart was the one who lost the most because of this. He's a pretty good qualifier at Knoxville but could only muster 18th quick on a track that had deteriorated mightily.
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August 17, 2015 at
01:05:31 AM
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The nationals are still about perfection. The draw will always suck, but the points will always reflect the same.
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August 17, 2015 at
05:16:00 AM
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They still had to make it through their heat or the time trial would have been useless.
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August 17, 2015 at
08:38:13 AM
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At least this guy provided reasoning and a clear proposal to a change that he feels is needed. Now that is something I can actually respond to.
Overall I don't think the Nationals are broken, so I don't feel a need to "fix" them. Time trial draw has always seemed to come into play a little, but it was especially evident this year. So if there was one area that I think could be improved, it is the time trials. The point system sscott proposed is a bit interesting and I'd like to do a little more research and thinking about it; but at first glance does seem to make some sense. Ultimately though, I don't foresee any changes since most people are happy with the way it currently is.
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August 17, 2015 at
08:45:18 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sscott on August 16 2015 at 11:44:10 PM
At the risk of drawing the wrath of all those from this forum opposed to any change in the Nationals , I would like to offer a suggestion for scoring at the Nationals. It was common to hear people talk about the timing discrepancies between those who timed early and those who timed in late on Wednesday and Thursday of this year's nationals. Here is data from this year's qualifying nights. The average position of the first ten cars to time on Wednesay was 15.4. The average position of the last ten cars to time on Wednesday was 33.8. Seven of the last ten to time timed 31st or worse. Of the top ten times, five of them came from the first ten to time trial. Only Paul McMahan broke into the top ten from the last ten to time.
On Thursday, Kevin Ingle was the first to time in and timed 55th out of 57. The next ten to time, however, averaged to time in at 14.8. The last ten to time averaged to finish at 41.3. The best time of the last ten to time was turned in by Billy Alley who timed in 27th.
IF you look at the top ten times from each night (a total of 20 drivers), only Paul McMahan came from the last ten cars to time. Only one!! Eight of the 20 came from the first ten cars to time.
I am not proposing to eliminate time trials. What I am proposing is softening up their impact. Currently, there is a two point gap between each position. Using the averages above, the final ten to time on Wednesday were giving up 18.4 spots (33.8-15.4) which equals almost 37 points to those in the top ten just because of the luck of the draw. On Thursday, the gap was wider, as the last ten to time, gave up an average of 26.5 spots or 53 points to their competitors who had the good fortune to draw one of those first ten timing spots. A deficit that large is pretty hard to overcome and is due in large part to the luck of the draw.
A possibile solution? Decrease the point differential between each time trial spot to one point instead of the traditional two points. I would propose that the three point differential in the heats and the two point differential in the features remain. This would soften the impact of being on the wrong end of the draw, and put more emphasis on the heat races and features. Best of all, this wouldn't change the format of the Nationals at all, most fans wouldn't even notice there was a change.
This would increase the fairness of the event which I think most would agree is important at any sporting event.
Now I am interested to see how many in the forum tear this one apart.
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it did not hurt donny the one year he timed dead lasst and set quick time. it is all car and driver, i remember that year i thought awe crap he is gonna be buried deep but no he was first and there were other quality cars and drivers that timed in front of him that did not do good at all
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August 17, 2015 at
09:09:30 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sscott on August 16 2015 at 11:44:10 PM
At the risk of drawing the wrath of all those from this forum opposed to any change in the Nationals , I would like to offer a suggestion for scoring at the Nationals. It was common to hear people talk about the timing discrepancies between those who timed early and those who timed in late on Wednesday and Thursday of this year's nationals. Here is data from this year's qualifying nights. The average position of the first ten cars to time on Wednesay was 15.4. The average position of the last ten cars to time on Wednesday was 33.8. Seven of the last ten to time timed 31st or worse. Of the top ten times, five of them came from the first ten to time trial. Only Paul McMahan broke into the top ten from the last ten to time.
On Thursday, Kevin Ingle was the first to time in and timed 55th out of 57. The next ten to time, however, averaged to time in at 14.8. The last ten to time averaged to finish at 41.3. The best time of the last ten to time was turned in by Billy Alley who timed in 27th.
IF you look at the top ten times from each night (a total of 20 drivers), only Paul McMahan came from the last ten cars to time. Only one!! Eight of the 20 came from the first ten cars to time.
I am not proposing to eliminate time trials. What I am proposing is softening up their impact. Currently, there is a two point gap between each position. Using the averages above, the final ten to time on Wednesday were giving up 18.4 spots (33.8-15.4) which equals almost 37 points to those in the top ten just because of the luck of the draw. On Thursday, the gap was wider, as the last ten to time, gave up an average of 26.5 spots or 53 points to their competitors who had the good fortune to draw one of those first ten timing spots. A deficit that large is pretty hard to overcome and is due in large part to the luck of the draw.
A possibile solution? Decrease the point differential between each time trial spot to one point instead of the traditional two points. I would propose that the three point differential in the heats and the two point differential in the features remain. This would soften the impact of being on the wrong end of the draw, and put more emphasis on the heat races and features. Best of all, this wouldn't change the format of the Nationals at all, most fans wouldn't even notice there was a change.
This would increase the fairness of the event which I think most would agree is important at any sporting event.
Now I am interested to see how many in the forum tear this one apart.
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Another option would be to keep the points as they are and allow only one lap for TT like they did on Friday night.
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August 17, 2015 at
09:10:19 AM
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7634
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Reply to:
Posted By: sscott on August 16 2015 at 11:44:10 PM
At the risk of drawing the wrath of all those from this forum opposed to any change in the Nationals , I would like to offer a suggestion for scoring at the Nationals. It was common to hear people talk about the timing discrepancies between those who timed early and those who timed in late on Wednesday and Thursday of this year's nationals. Here is data from this year's qualifying nights. The average position of the first ten cars to time on Wednesay was 15.4. The average position of the last ten cars to time on Wednesday was 33.8. Seven of the last ten to time timed 31st or worse. Of the top ten times, five of them came from the first ten to time trial. Only Paul McMahan broke into the top ten from the last ten to time.
On Thursday, Kevin Ingle was the first to time in and timed 55th out of 57. The next ten to time, however, averaged to time in at 14.8. The last ten to time averaged to finish at 41.3. The best time of the last ten to time was turned in by Billy Alley who timed in 27th.
IF you look at the top ten times from each night (a total of 20 drivers), only Paul McMahan came from the last ten cars to time. Only one!! Eight of the 20 came from the first ten cars to time.
I am not proposing to eliminate time trials. What I am proposing is softening up their impact. Currently, there is a two point gap between each position. Using the averages above, the final ten to time on Wednesday were giving up 18.4 spots (33.8-15.4) which equals almost 37 points to those in the top ten just because of the luck of the draw. On Thursday, the gap was wider, as the last ten to time, gave up an average of 26.5 spots or 53 points to their competitors who had the good fortune to draw one of those first ten timing spots. A deficit that large is pretty hard to overcome and is due in large part to the luck of the draw.
A possibile solution? Decrease the point differential between each time trial spot to one point instead of the traditional two points. I would propose that the three point differential in the heats and the two point differential in the features remain. This would soften the impact of being on the wrong end of the draw, and put more emphasis on the heat races and features. Best of all, this wouldn't change the format of the Nationals at all, most fans wouldn't even notice there was a change.
This would increase the fairness of the event which I think most would agree is important at any sporting event.
Now I am interested to see how many in the forum tear this one apart.
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Not such a bad idea, might help
or split TT like WOO is doing now?
Nats format is damn good, but anything can be improved... kind of like the difference betwen Schatz & everybody else?
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August 17, 2015 at
09:17:08 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: railfan33 on August 17 2015 at 09:09:30 AM
Another option would be to keep the points as they are and allow only one lap for TT like they did on Friday night.
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Just curious what you think that wouild help? Track conditions would still be the same and still have a big impact on times. Friday night they split the field which actually does help to a degree since the last car out isn't actually going against the first car out for points and starting position.
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August 17, 2015 at
09:22:25 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on August 17 2015 at 09:10:19 AM
Not such a bad idea, might help
or split TT like WOO is doing now?
Nats format is damn good, but anything can be improved... kind of like the difference betwen Schatz & everybody else?
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We're always looking for a more fair way but doesn't it always seem the expected cars make it to the front of the A Saturday night? When Steve was dominating everyone was wanting changes to make it "more fair". In reality it was to try to slow down Steve. It's the same with Donny now. I'm not sure he wouldn't have won again starting anywhere in the field. As soon as someone does beat him all will be fine with the format again. :-)
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August 17, 2015 at
09:23:39 AM
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No change needed.
Is it fair? Maybe not.
Is it exciting? YES
As soon as "fairness" starts being a factor on how many tickets are sold we can discuss changing it. Until then, accept the fact that life isn't always fair and the purse is the largest in all of dirt track racing by a wide margin.
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August 17, 2015 at
09:25:28 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on August 17 2015 at 09:17:08 AM
Just curious what you think that wouild help? Track conditions would still be the same and still have a big impact on times. Friday night they split the field which actually does help to a degree since the last car out isn't actually going against the first car out for points and starting position.
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Would cut the number of laps on the track in half. Might help the back end of the draw to some degree. Not saying it's the ultimate solution.
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August 17, 2015 at
09:41:28 AM
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I'm not bashing the existing format at all... but if they were going to adjust anything it would be simple...cut qualifying into 2 groups like the outlaws do now with a large field...fast time in group 1 gets 200 points...fast time in group 2 gets 198 points...2nd quick in group 1 gets 196.... 2nd quick in group 2 gets 194
Loose is when you hit the wall with the rear of the
car, tight is when you hit the wall with the front of
the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and
torque is how far you move the wall.
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August 17, 2015 at
10:00:45 AM
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How about 2 or 3 car time trial runs instead of single car?
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August 17, 2015 at
11:14:33 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sscott on August 16 2015 at 11:44:10 PM
At the risk of drawing the wrath of all those from this forum opposed to any change in the Nationals , I would like to offer a suggestion for scoring at the Nationals. It was common to hear people talk about the timing discrepancies between those who timed early and those who timed in late on Wednesday and Thursday of this year's nationals. Here is data from this year's qualifying nights. The average position of the first ten cars to time on Wednesay was 15.4. The average position of the last ten cars to time on Wednesday was 33.8. Seven of the last ten to time timed 31st or worse. Of the top ten times, five of them came from the first ten to time trial. Only Paul McMahan broke into the top ten from the last ten to time.
On Thursday, Kevin Ingle was the first to time in and timed 55th out of 57. The next ten to time, however, averaged to time in at 14.8. The last ten to time averaged to finish at 41.3. The best time of the last ten to time was turned in by Billy Alley who timed in 27th.
IF you look at the top ten times from each night (a total of 20 drivers), only Paul McMahan came from the last ten cars to time. Only one!! Eight of the 20 came from the first ten cars to time.
I am not proposing to eliminate time trials. What I am proposing is softening up their impact. Currently, there is a two point gap between each position. Using the averages above, the final ten to time on Wednesday were giving up 18.4 spots (33.8-15.4) which equals almost 37 points to those in the top ten just because of the luck of the draw. On Thursday, the gap was wider, as the last ten to time, gave up an average of 26.5 spots or 53 points to their competitors who had the good fortune to draw one of those first ten timing spots. A deficit that large is pretty hard to overcome and is due in large part to the luck of the draw.
A possibile solution? Decrease the point differential between each time trial spot to one point instead of the traditional two points. I would propose that the three point differential in the heats and the two point differential in the features remain. This would soften the impact of being on the wrong end of the draw, and put more emphasis on the heat races and features. Best of all, this wouldn't change the format of the Nationals at all, most fans wouldn't even notice there was a change.
This would increase the fairness of the event which I think most would agree is important at any sporting event.
Now I am interested to see how many in the forum tear this one apart.
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I to have a suggestion for timing at the Nationals. What would be wrong with reducing the amount of laps run during hot laps. Also reducing down to one lap instead of two during time trials then points could stay the same. I do agree with scott with the points I'm just offering a different view.
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August 17, 2015 at
12:21:28 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Kranky71 on August 17 2015 at 11:14:33 AM
I to have a suggestion for timing at the Nationals. What would be wrong with reducing the amount of laps run during hot laps. Also reducing down to one lap instead of two during time trials then points could stay the same. I do agree with scott with the points I'm just offering a different view.
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The solution is simple. Do not have the track so fast for time trials. The track is going to fall off a lot more when they are running high 14 second to low 15 second laps than it would if the fast guys were running high 15 second to low 16 second lap times. This would also take away some of the advantage of the "big Nationals motor" the big teams have. Easy example of this would be Billy Alley (15.987) setting quick time in his qualifying group on Friday night with Dustin Selvage (16.205) coming out 3rd to last and laying down 4th quick.
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August 17, 2015 at
12:46:01 PM
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Better track prep/no wings= problem solved
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August 17, 2015 at
01:06:23 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: ThrowbackRacingTeam on August 17 2015 at 12:46:01 PM
Better track prep/no wings= problem solved
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A great answer , also how about no fuel stop , no tire change ,add larger fuel tank or cell , if fans like the fifty laps that will this race even better other wise you have two 25 lap races or call it Knoxville Nationals Twin 25's
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