Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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I am by no means an elegant writer, or much of a story teller. But, I wanted to share my experience going to both nights of the Summer Nationals at Williams Grove this past weekend.

            I think a little bit of background information will help explain why I wanted to write this story. Like everyone else on this forum, I love sprint car racing. I have been going to races as long as I can remember. The biggest reason I wanted to visit Williams Grove is that my family and I have a personal connection to the track. My grandfather, Gays Biro, raced there during his career. Midgets, Sprint cars, even the occasional Dirt Champ car ride. He never won a race there, as far as I know. (cue Posse superiority, more on that later). What makes the connection personal is that he died there. 1982 he was a participant in the Williams Grove Old Timers. My grandfather was there with my grandmother and his two antique cars, a 1930’s homemade sprint car, and a 1947 Kurtis Offy midget. Long story short, a radius rod bolt broke on the midget, resulting in the now free rod impaling into the track in front of the left rear wheel, and flipping the car over. As most of you know, those cars lack roll cages, 5 point seat belts and other “modern” safety features. He insisted on driving a car like he raced, no “sissy” roll cage or hoops. He passed away at Holy Spirit Hospital shortly after arrival.

            With that being said, I don’t view myself as an “outlaw” fan, or a “posse” fan. I just love sprint cars. My friend Dan has never been to a race at the Grove, so I invited him to go, and share in the costs from traveling from the Akron Ohio area. The drive across the turnpike was uneventful, arriving at our hotel and relaxing for a little while before going to the track. Upon arriving to the Grove, I think what my buddy said was “this place is hillbilly as Fu&%”. I kind of bit my tongue. I knew than to judge the place based on what kind of walls are used to keep people from sneaking in. (but, seriously, those plain steel walls make it look like a combination junkyard/football stadium). We parked, paid for our pit passes outside of turn one, and walked inside. First looking at the track, well, it looks like a dirt track. It seemed like the straights went on forever and the turns seemed way too tight and short. In all, my first impression was one of both sadness and joy. I was happy that I was able to see a race here, and sad that both my grandfather and father were not here to enjoy it with me.

            We walked around, took pictures, and climbed the bridge up and down a few times, pretty much taking the place in. We sat in the bleachers closest to turn 4, as high up as we could. Now, for the racing. I’ve been to enough sprint car races to know that heat races seldom involve a great deal of passing or action. Much less on a bigger track. So, with that being said the heat races were pretty boring. It was after the heat races were over I began to notice something. I said I’m from the Akron Ohio area. I did not, prior to Friday’s races, own any posse racing shirts. So, I wore a Paul McMahan shirt. I didn’t think much of this, racing is racing right? Surely no one will care I don’t have a Stevie Smith, Fred Rahmer, Lynn Paxton, Smokey Snellbaker shirt on right? I was wrong. Oh so Wrong. It started after the dash was over. We were walking in the infield, looking at stuff to buy. Some kids were throwing a football, it landed near me. I threw it to the one young lady brave enough to play with a group of little boys. The closest little boy, MAYBE age 10, said “hey! You’re a god damn outlaw fan”. I think I laughed. I’m not sure; I was kind of blown away by the fact that a kid said that. Well, anyway, we moved on walking back to our seats. It was at this point that about every 5^th person I walked by made some kind of comment to me. Some were just the simple “POSSE RULES!”. Some I probably shouldn’t type on here. I’m guessing it was the never ending supply of booze that fueled this “us against the world” mindset. I guess you can say I was shocked. I have never once seen even the most diehard fans at Attica or Fremont or Eldora or Sharon or MERCER say these things. But hey, I guess they just love their locals. Anyway, Greg Hodnett flips, they blame….yup….Paul McMahan. I might as well have been wearing an Obama shirt in the stands. Danny Dietrich wins in an honestly good entertaining race. I do enjoy seeing locals win big races, especially if they pass, and run away from,. Donny Schatz. After the races, we go into the pits. I have an idea, I need some Camo, a posse shirt. What better than the guy who just won? Besides, I didn’t like the Stevie Smith shirts that were for sale. We went to Danny’s trailer, and bought a shift. After which, I said congrats to Danny and his crew. No one thanked me. No one thanked me for buying a shirt. Walking back to the car, I was taunted by at least a dozen people, the highlight of which was a woman screaming in my face “ITS ALL ABOUT THE POSSE!!!!”. I didn’t know if she was referring to the group of central PA sprint car drivers, or in her PBR fuel rage, telling me how I should be all about her mispronounced girl parts. Either way I was uncomfortable.

            Anyway, Saturday we went to the Eastern Museum of Motor Racing, one of the main reasons for this trip. Long story short, my grandfather has a few pictures and his helmet that he was wearing the day he died on display. The staff at the Museum was by far the kindest and most helpful people I encountered this entire weekend. They even allowed me to take a picture holding the helmet. Stopping there truly made the trip worth it. Saturday I was ready, Danny Dietrich shirt on, I was a local now. No one knew that it a posse driver didn’t win I wasn’t going to go burn down a barn or whatever. In my opinion, the racing Saturday was not that entertaining. I never made it to beer hill. If the “regular” fans were that obnoxious I think watching from that part of the track would have been a mistake. To be honest, I left a little disappointed. The racing wasn’t anything to write about (see what I did there?). The crowd detracted from having a good time. The bathrooms were old and outdated. The food is massively overpriced. The grandstands need updated, and frankly having almost half of the seating reserved, is ridiculous. I will say unlike some Ohio tracks it wasn’t so dusty that you can’t see the race. I guess what I asking for here, is what do the so called die hard posse fans bragging about? Yes, you have a deep, talented well funded group of drivers and teams that can beat the best of the best in your own back yard. But, you are far from having the best track, or tracks (Lincoln and Port Royal are next on the list to visit) in the country. I hate to break it to you; Eldora is much, much, much nicer track. It was nicer long before Tony Stewart owned it. In closing, I just wanted to write this story on my experience at the grove. Will I go back? Hell yes. I did have fun. But, it seems that half of the comments on here are debates on what makes central PA the center of our sprint car universe. I wanted to give a look through SOBER, unbiased eyes and ears. Any comments are welcome. Just keep it clean, I heard enough foul language this past weekend. Thanks for reading.  

I'm from PA and go to the Grove and Port Royal weekly. I sit in the turn 4 bleachers you talk about (that night I was in a suite to get away from the WoO temp fans). I'm not saying it didn't happen , but I've never seen actions like that up there. Yes , in other parts of the speedway I have and it's embarrassing to me also. I'm sorry you had this experience and I hope you don't group every PA fan as the types you ran into. Hopefully you return again soon and have a more enjoyable experience. Be sure to go to Port Royal the next time. It's very doubtful you will be treated the same. Altough last year during the WoO race there were questionable actions by temp WoO fans then too. Maybe try a regular show to see that it's not always like that.

Sorry again ,

PA fan (not a Posse groupie)

I don't think I've personally gone through what is described above, I had a clown try to heckle me in the parking lot once wearing a Haud shirt, but that ended rather quickly. The majority of fans in the 4th turn section are fine, a couple of loud mouths, but nowhere near the backstretch or hill.

The WoO brings a Nascar-type crowd there, and like people of low intelligence often do, they fall victim to the gang mentality of Posse vs Outlaw. No different than alot of big time sporting events, although I think PA is a bit nastier in general.

sorry but i call bs about being ridiculed by dozens of fans and people getting in your face over a tshirt... i goto the grove every week and will wear a fred rahmer shirt one week and a donny schatz the next...ive never had anyone get in my face or make me feel uncomfortable in 25+ years over which driver's shirt im wearing...

i agree about the food being over priced, but if you think the bathrooms are outdated and bad at the grove, don't bother going to lincoln or port..

ive never seen too many people claiming williams grove is the best track in the country or anything of the such...most grove regulars would probably tell you how much the track has gone down hill since the death of morgan hughes... the grove is just the central "battleground" of the outlaws and the posse and home to a large amount of passionate sprint car fans..yes some have too much to drink and can be rude and obnoxious, but thats common at lots of tracks.. i doubt you wouldve been hard pressed to find drunk and obnoxious fans at eldora 2 weeks ago either..

I will be back, dont get me wrong. I just think its stupid. People on here brag about how great the posse are, how great the tracks, the racing, the enviroment, the facilities are. But, in the end, it was kind of a let down. I understand being fanatical, I'm an Ohio State fan, and I talk a lot of trash to Michigan fans. I get it. I just wish that given the fact my family has such a connection to the place, that it would be like disneyland. It wasn't.

 You can call "BS" on whatever you want. I have no reason to make anything up. I said I would be back. I think the whole problem is that you view it as "a battle ground" its no such thing. Its a race track. That statement sums up the whole reason I typed that story. There is a line between passion and outright fanaticism. Calling it a "Battlefield" is ridiculous.

It's fairly well known that Dietrich and his crew tend to be clowns/dumb, so don't take that part personally. If you learn more about him personally, his character (or lack thereof) will become clearer

As a long time Grove regular I will say that Outlaw weekends bring out the worst of the worst of "posse" fans.  I am always astonished at the nast, rude assenine behavior I see.  I sit on the front stretch but park on the back, outside the pits.  After what I witnessed in victory circle on the track Friday, I avoided it and went through the tunnel on Saturday.  Drunk, stupid behavior.  4 man-children were so loud, rude and completely disrespectful to Don Schatz it was so embarrasing.  There was security, but didn't seem to be doing much to control an obvious out of control group.  A woman who had her grandson with her was trying to let him see Schatz and these guys just about trampled the kid.  Grandma gave them a few choice words and left.  This is what I don't like about these weekends and usually only attend 1 or 2 of the 3 times they are at the Grove.  Senseless!!  gotta say don't think I'll even attempt the 3 day circus Knoxville pretend show they are going to attempt in October.  Why?!  The place does need some major upgrades.  

Maybe if you want to pretend you are the eastern version of Knoxville; ;you should concentrate on looking & acting like it first. 

I STRONGLY encourage coming to a local (or anything other than WoO sanctioned) race before placing any final judgments on Williams Grove (let alone Pennsylvania racing as a whole). 

The "NASCAR type crowd" referenced above is a good example of what the WoO races draw in. 

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to the EMMR - never have I heard bad word about that place. 

"Some Posse fans suck, some Posse fans don't" is my favorite motto when it comes to outsiders visiting the area solely during Posse vs WoO shows. 

Granted, some Posse fans are idiots and some are not. But I am not sure I buy the heckling story. I live near Port Royal and every WoO race at the Grove I wear one of my many Sammy Swindell tshirts. Now as much as people hate him I've never had one single person say a word to me in many, many years of doing so. Does the facitlity need help, oh yes. Come to Port if you are looking for one of the nicer tracks in central Pa.

I will be back. No idea for what show.

The EMMR was awersome, and I cant wait to go back

I don't hold the track responsible for the actions of the fans. I hold the fans responsible. I had fun, just a different type of fun. I've never seen someone wave a territorial flag in victory lane before. That made me wonder what fans like that do in the winter time. Other than get on message boards and proclaim possee superiority over all the sprint car lands.

Beero, I'm sorry you had such experiences at The Grove. Believe me, that is NOT how you would be treated by the true Pennsylvania Posse fans. When the Outlaws come to town, there is a whole different breed of “people" (I'll use that term loosely since other words to describe them better may be offensive to some) that show up. These “people" only go to races when the Outlaws are in town and since they aren't there every week like a lot of us are, all they see is the bullshit and the hype on social media such as the friendly bantering back and forth between the Williams Grove and WoO Twitter accounts. Danny Dietrich gets in on it too but its all in good fun. These wannabe fans see that and since they have the IQ of a broken tooth pick, they think in order to fit in, they need to go to the track and be fanatical about the Posse vs. The Outlaws thing and since there are a couple thousand other wannabe fans doing the same, they think they're doing what everyone else does so it validates their obnoxious behavior. Add in the fact that you have people who when sober are so stupid that they forget to breathe at least 10 times a day are consuming alcohol, and it makes it that much worse. I've noticed it getting really bad over the past 5 years and it seems like every time the WoO comes to town, it gets worse. Please don't judge us based on these experiences because those people who treated you that way ARE NOT Posse fans and I'll guarantee you that 99% of them won't be attending any races at Port Royal, Williams Grove or Lincoln this coming weekend. We won't see them again until October at the National Open. As far as Williams Grove being a first rate facility, I totally agree and the same things you listed are things most of us regulars have been complaining about ever since pinky took over and unfortunately, they won't be fixed under her watch. When you come back to PA, come back during speedweek or for some All Star shows when most of the assholes aren't there and your experience will be far different. Also, make it a point to go to Port Royal and Lincoln because they're light years ahead of Williams Grove these days. Will there be a few drunk morons there? Absolutely but there's at least a few at every dirt track I've ever been to but you'll see its NOTHING like what you saw when the Outlaws were here. Even though it wasn't quite what you hoped it would be, thank you for coming in and spending your hard earned money at one of our local tracks. I hope you come back sometime and have a better experience and if you have any questions or anything about Port, Lincoln or any of the other tracks here in Pennsyltucky, feel free to ask and I'll help you as best I can.

thank you! I will do just that. If you are ever in ohio for a race let me know.

No problem man. I don't know when it will be but I definitely want to do an Ohio tour some time. I've only seen videos on YouTube but there's no doubt you have some awesome drivers and tracks out there that know how to put on a show.

I buy it because I've seen it happen before. Not to me personally but I have definitely seen it. In fact when I was leaving Friday night, there were a few loud mouthed morons out in the parking lot screaming “Fuck you Schatz" and “Posse rules" and I'm pretty sure they were directing it at a couple who were both wearing Donny Schatz shirts walking nearby. At that point, most people had already left so I don't know who else they would've been yelling at unless they were just really into talking to themselves which given the mentality of some of these idiots, is a strong possibility. Judging by the way a lot of people were acting, I knew this thread was coming. I even mentioned to my friends who I go to the races with during victory lane ceremonies Saturday night. Maybe I'm making more out of it than what it is, but I think it's time some of these folks wake up and realize that they're hurting our racing scene. How many other people had experiences like this and decided that it was enough for them not to come back? Then again, as I stated in my previous post, the people who do these things don't care because they aren't Posse fans. They're just assholes who go to 5 races a year (all of which are WoO races) and follow Twitter. Word of mouth is a powerful thing and when people tell other people about these things, it can do damage to our local racing scene.

Right on man. It is embarrassing. I actually felt embarrassed and I wasn't even doing anything and neither were any of the people who were with me or around me in our general area. In fact, it was all coming from the rows below the season reserved seats so what does that tell you? I can tell you one thing, if anyone who goes to the races with me EVER acts that way, it will be the last time they ride to the races with me or sit in my seats.

I do appreciate the people commenting on here. I want to make it clear that I dont hate Williams Grove, Central PA or the "Posse" in general. I will come back to another race soon. I just thought I would share my experience.

Uncoordinated Pride, but our drivers deserve hardcore fans!

story seems like an accurate term to describe your post..

i dont view anything as a battlefield...its why i used " " around the term...the track is as much of a battlefield as donny schatz is an "outlaw" or greg hodnett is a member of a "posse"... 

you were in Posse land , on a night of its largest rival. a "posse claimed" driver won, pretty common reaction, but sadly not the correct assumption (not saying you are, its just ez to do)  to make throwing a blanket over all posse fans as terrible race fans, some drink less, some dont drink at all, some just know how to hold thier tounge and humble thier achievements, lord knows your only as good as your last race.. anyone that has had to eat crow will remember this , I wish i had the involvement in sprint racing PA does, Im from the Midwest, Honestly from a town that has the hottest thing in a sprintcar hailing from it , do i chant the domination,good efforts and excellent results? no, LIKE I SAID YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST RACE ... the minute you put your gard down your getting ashamed,  My note to you is, If you havent been there, Try IA next month, too many western cars,Aussies,Midwest cars and Posse to overwelm the bias.. And the history of the event is top notch...