Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Just as a matter of interest do you hoseheaders think that had Sammy stuck with the WoO and not gone off to try do NASCAR would he have stopped Steve from winning so many titles?  

Sammy being my favorite all time driver I always thought he was as good if not better than Steve?!

Also how much of Steves success was due to superior equipment?  Not trying to downplay the Kings incredible talent, just a question

This would be pretty impossible to say which way it would go.  You have to remember that Steve also went to NASCAR to race with the Bernstein team.  By the time Steve  got there the team was for sale and a complete mess.  Sammy was on and off running the whole WOO schedual in different years.  He was not at all the races because of his own decisions.  Both teams had top notch equipment, but Sammy might have been better.  Karl Kinser was a budget racer.  He did not spend money on things just to be spending money.  He  fixed things and repaired things instead of buying all new.  Karl was in the 1970 and 1980  s a couple years ahead of other teams in tech.  He knew as a former drag racer that a lighter car went faster.  Steve raced at all the races and has the total wins to show it.  He also has the national wins to show it.  You are right, Sammy as been really good.

I hate revisionist history.  How many years did Sammy do Nascar?  One, two at the tops?   If he was as great as everyone remembers, he would have been on the road more often.    

Sammy only beat steve twice in the championship twice in 10/12 early years. Fact is they are both great drivers and I consider myself lucky to watch them both race over 30+ years, but sammy never could beat sammy consistant enough over the season. Steve just seem to get on a roll and nobody could beat him

The Kinser vs Swindell question will always have pros and cons for each side. I think the real question is would Wolfgang of been the King if he was out there as long Steve ?

I realise alot of people don't like Sammy. However how many years did he do the full WoO tour?  I somehow dont think it was a lack of talent that kept him off the tour bro.

And its just a discussion to while away the time

It was never about superior equipment. Sammy always had as good or better. Steve&Karl were an awesome pairing. Karl was winning races way before Steve started driving for him.He could read a race track better than most.I feel Mark was an average driver before he drove for Dad.

as an aside, why did mark stop driving? 

and yeah no doubt Karl was very influential in Steves success but Steve proved he could do it without him too

Steve and karl kinser were awesome. I think sammy could have taken some of the races and maybe a few of the championship, but we will never know.

I'm a Sammy fan too but the numbers speak for themselves. KInser was better

thats a great question .  anyone know why mark stopped driving?  man i remember when that guy got hot he was untouchable . it was fun to watch .

 Maybe a more timely question would be, who's better now?

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

VIA World Of Outlaws history page from 1978 to 2012:

Steve Kinser, 20 championships, 574 wins

Sammy Swindell, 3 championships, 289 wins

What was the question again?

do it in the dirt

As to why Mark quit racing = to drive the skool bus

we've been over this time and time again

I'm not sure this is the best measure of Steve's superiority, because there were a bunch of years in his prime when Sammy didn't race full time w/ the Outlaws (mid to late 80s, early 90s) and had he, the number of wins gap would be somewhat closer. Eckert's database would be a great tool in this debate, but it would be interesting to see % of WoO wins versus races entered between Steve and Sammy from 1980 to 2000.

To me, what sets Steve apart far and away is the record in the big races, all of which Sammy entered during that time. 12 Nationals wins to 1, 7 Kings Royals to 3, 4 National Open wins to 2. Even the Gold Cup, which Sammy didn't always enter but has entered enough is like 12 to 1. When the big money was on the line, Steve and Karl dominated and that's what makes Steve's record far superior to Sammy.

It was a pleasure getting to watch these guys race.

This year they're both disappointing wth Sammy ahead in points. Last year Sammy was better. flat out. Most WoO wins....

Sammy could never have lowered himself to race all those years against fields that included local drivers.  And the post race interviews would have driven even non drinkers to drink.  Wasn't he banned from USAC?

lol this is half the reason for my thread, so much Sammy hatred.  Yes his interviews are terrible no doubt about it.  However on the track there are very few as exciting

As far as using WoO stats to prove your pooint, you are missing the point, Sammy didnt run the full schedule for many years as others have noted, my point was if he had, would he have taken a bunch off Steve, my belief is yes.

The big race argument is a good one, hard to dispute that

I had the pleasure of watching both (along with Wolfgang) in their hey-day. Sammy was(is) one of the best open wheel drivers however Kinser would have to be the best sprint car driver ever. In my opinion, Sammy would have more wins and possibly a few more championships, but his interest in Indy Lights, Indy Cars,  stock cars, race trucks, an his own interest in R and D kept him from hitting all the races every year. Steve on the other hand strapped in year after year and showed 'em all how to do it.

One thing I do remember from probably the late 80's was Open Wheel magazine had a picture of Sammys chrome vise in the back of the TMC trailer. At around the same time, Karl was cutting the backs off of the guages in the dash and replacing them with paper cups, and road signs sometimes ended up as sheet metal on his cars. . Apples to Apples, Apples to Oranges? Those of us who got to watch both in their prime should be happy we saw history being made...