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Topic: Des Moines Register Article on Local Racing Economy...
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May 07, 2007 at
01:12:05 PM
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John's observation of 60-70% of fans being older and not many families and Hawkers example of total cost to take the family, strikes right at the core of why attendance is down. My biggest pet-peeve is charging adult price for those CHILDREN that are 12 and over! Those that are between 12 and 18, both boys and girls are the future of the sport. Most, especially those under 16 don't or can't or shouldn't work, so who pays for their admission??? Hawker is representitive of thousands of race fans with children. I'm sure that he does his best to afford the prices, but how many times a year? Wake up Promoters, the children, the future of your fan base are forced to stay. home or doing something much cheaper because you have priced them out. With the exception of a very few events like the Chili Bowl, the charge for those under 18 should be no more than half of the adult price. And at some low attendance weekly shows, hell let them in free.......their not coming anyway, why not?
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May 07, 2007 at
01:18:36 PM
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John,
Give Newton about 3 years and see what kind of attendance they have. I know numerous season ticket holders to the Iowa Speedway and they are all under the delusion that they will get a Nextel Cup Date in the next 2 years. LOL
Once the "newness" of the track, and the "delusion" of these casual fans fade, they will be hurting to have good attendance as well and put the "blame" on having too many choices.
I really don't buy into what Craig Armstrong told the register either. If they want the local tracks to succeed, they wouldn't be scheduling directly against them on Saturday nights or extremely late afternoon starts (like the USAC race was this week). If they really wanted the short tracks to succeed, they'd be promoting their races and telling their fanbase to head down the road to K'ville after the races or promoting other short tracks around the state. They are interested in one thing, promoting themselves (as they should be).
To top that off, last year they were complaining that Knoxville's pricing was "too low". Even for the big events like the Nationals. They wanted the fairboard to raise ticket prices to be more in-line with what they are charging up in Newton (probably so more people would head to Newton because ticket prices would be more comparable).
Having a $75 ticket price for the IRL race isn't going to help them either. KC IRL race was $45 face value and much cheaper if you checked out ebay or other auction sites. Have a group of 3 or more and it's cheaper to drive to KC, attend the races, go out to eat, and drive home than it is to go to Newton for the same series.
Don't get me wrong, I want Newton to succeed, just like I want Knoxville, Boone, Osky, 34 Raceway, etc., etc.. to succeed, but higher ticket prices, specials only (like Cappi suggested), bus races, donkey races, etc. aren't going to get the job done. As in any business, it takes $$ to make $$. Best thing Knoxville (or any other short-track for that matter) could do is go around to the local schools and give tickets to every kid 14-18 to get them to come out.
Hire some kids as consultants to find out what the track(s) should do to attract them to racing (may be as little as the free tickets or a special night for them to drive their street car around the track). Knoxville says they haven't figured out how to attract the younger crowd. How can you when the average age of the Fairboard is 55-60, Cappi is near 70, and you have no-one in the age bracket you are trying to attract on-staff.
I could rant all day about this, but as always, it will fall on deaf ears....
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May 07, 2007 at
02:01:33 PM
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You know, I was told by a fairboard member a couple of years ago that letting kids in free would result in the track being a cheap babysitter. My suggestion has always been that kids under sixteen that are accompanied by an adult should be allowed in free. Lord knows they have the seats. I am also a big proponent of involving the schools. Knoxville schools developed what they call SPRINT, which is a program that stresses basic human values to the students. I'm not sure if the track or some of the local racers are involved in this in some way but if they aren't, they should be. I'd be happy to get involved in helping organize assemblies or such in the schools if anyone with the track would be interested.
I'd like to see more involvement with English Creek Outlaw Dirt Kart Track. This is a big asset to the speedway. Eventually, more young racers will proceed to sprint cars from there, it seems all of these great young drivers in northern California started in dirt karts. What a great way to tie in young people, whether as racers or spectators.
The main reason I compare Iowa Speedway to Knoxville as an example is that they have done a wonderful job in getting visibility for the new track. I think it will continue to succeed and they will get some bigger races, likely trucks or Busch series. I just don't know why Knoxville has never been able to do similar things in getting the word out.
I don't want people to think I'm bashing the management and Cappy for no good reason. I want them to be successful and will do what I can to help. I just happen to strongly disagree with some of their logic. Knoxville and sprint car racing in general, is fortunate to have fans all over the country who are passionate and want to spread the word about the excitement and greatness of the sport.
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May 07, 2007 at
04:40:23 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: John Katich on May 07 2007 at 02:01:33 PM
You know, I was told by a fairboard member a couple of years ago that letting kids in free would result in the track being a cheap babysitter. My suggestion has always been that kids under sixteen that are accompanied by an adult should be allowed in free. Lord knows they have the seats. I am also a big proponent of involving the schools. Knoxville schools developed what they call SPRINT, which is a program that stresses basic human values to the students. I'm not sure if the track or some of the local racers are involved in this in some way but if they aren't, they should be. I'd be happy to get involved in helping organize assemblies or such in the schools if anyone with the track would be interested.
I'd like to see more involvement with English Creek Outlaw Dirt Kart Track. This is a big asset to the speedway. Eventually, more young racers will proceed to sprint cars from there, it seems all of these great young drivers in northern California started in dirt karts. What a great way to tie in young people, whether as racers or spectators.
The main reason I compare Iowa Speedway to Knoxville as an example is that they have done a wonderful job in getting visibility for the new track. I think it will continue to succeed and they will get some bigger races, likely trucks or Busch series. I just don't know why Knoxville has never been able to do similar things in getting the word out.
I don't want people to think I'm bashing the management and Cappy for no good reason. I want them to be successful and will do what I can to help. I just happen to strongly disagree with some of their logic. Knoxville and sprint car racing in general, is fortunate to have fans all over the country who are passionate and want to spread the word about the excitement and greatness of the sport.
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I am tired of Knoxville crying about the state of things. If times are so hard sell the place then. Where are the All Stars? Where were the NST dates last year? Why did they replace three WoO shows with latemodels? What happened to the 1200 pound nats? Why not do a race similar to the HBO? They have the best facilities in america for dirt racing and they seem intent on killing it. Has the money dried up? Or have the people running it gone STALE? Has there ever been an effort to build or develop another 410 track in the area? That more than anything would bring in more drivers more events and more exposure. Cappy can talk all he wants about 360's taking over but if there is one fact that has stood the test of time it is that Knoxville fans will not show up for 360 only programs. I guess my point is that if you can't make it go at Knoxville with the lore and the legacy of that place you can't make it anywhere.
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May 07, 2007 at
07:42:19 PM
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I believe one of our PA sportsman racers gave back some of his winnings to Susky the other week to help out because the stands were empty...new trend...lol?
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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May 07, 2007 at
07:52:41 PM
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This message was edited on
May 07, 2007 at
08:06:48 PM by StanM
Reply to:
Posted By: nodust on May 06 2007 at 09:23:50 PM
The race track was to be commended for finally starting a race closer to on time last night. The races were over with, a couple of minutes before 10PM.
This is NOT an unreasonable goal for a family entertainment venue.
there was a lot of passing going on also.
maybe if this had of been the case for the past 20 years, we wouldn't have been having this discussion.
The lateness of the races and the more NON sprint car races that have been going on the past few years has made me wonder if I might not enjoy Saturday nights at other venues better myself. For the past 3 years, I have been doing soul searching myself as to whether I actually enjoy the sport, with all of the politics ect. anymore.
I have figured out that it is the people I know that make me want to return, not the races (or lack of).
Sprint car people are really great folks!
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I'm with you on that one Duane. I fill the cooler and pull the camper out to the track as often as I can. We grille in the afternoon, I go around the pits and invite some friends to stop by the camper then go down to the infield during the races and take some pictures. Hopefully the racing will be decent but half the time I'm hoping as much that it will get over early so I can crack open my first beer. Pits and infield = no beer until after the races so I'm waaaaaay behind the fans in the stands by the time I get my gear put away.
I like a good race but most of the time anymore I go with the attitude that I'm going to have a good time with friends. If a good race happens to break out it's a bonus.
The law of averages tells us we're only going to see a few of those races for the ages in our lifetime. In fact with all the racing I watch I'll go entire seasons without seeing anything that's worth writing home about. When you do see one of those rare moments savor it because a few years might pass by before another one comes around. I think what we have is an impatient generation that expects fantastic racing every time they go and you know that ain't gonna happen.
Another edit to add this point. Up where I live Sprints are a specials only deal. Most tracks run five or six classes so they're bringing driver and crew for 100+ cars as well as attracting family and friends. This kind of promoting makes fans of the top classes like Sprints and Late Models growl but all those cars and local fans guarantee better attendance. For example, it makes more sense to run a few classes like B Mods, Super Stocks (limited Late Models) and Pure Stocks than Sprints. With your entry classes you're going to draw 50 cars from nearby along with friends and family. On the other hand, your Sprints up here are probably going to draw in the mid 20's with half pulling in from Fargo or down by Sioux Falls. Consequently, not many family and friends are going to follow the out of town Sprint Cars but your local support classes are going to draw people from the local area. Less than half the purse and four times the people in the pits for twice as many cars at the same entry fee as Sprints or Late Models. That's what the tracks up by me are doing, five or six classes and book special events for the premier classes. We do have a local Late Model $800 to $1000 to win class at some of our tracks. They run cast blocks so in a sense they're "limited" compared to the aluminum engine beasts of WoO and Lucas Oil Series. The local fans love those things and they can be entertaining so I'm satisfied. Everybody can't live southeast of Des Moines.
Stan Meissner
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May 08, 2007 at
07:38:49 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: vande77 on May 07 2007 at 01:18:36 PM
John,
Give Newton about 3 years and see what kind of attendance they have. I know numerous season ticket holders to the Iowa Speedway and they are all under the delusion that they will get a Nextel Cup Date in the next 2 years. LOL
Once the "newness" of the track, and the "delusion" of these casual fans fade, they will be hurting to have good attendance as well and put the "blame" on having too many choices.
I really don't buy into what Craig Armstrong told the register either. If they want the local tracks to succeed, they wouldn't be scheduling directly against them on Saturday nights or extremely late afternoon starts (like the USAC race was this week). If they really wanted the short tracks to succeed, they'd be promoting their races and telling their fanbase to head down the road to K'ville after the races or promoting other short tracks around the state. They are interested in one thing, promoting themselves (as they should be).
To top that off, last year they were complaining that Knoxville's pricing was "too low". Even for the big events like the Nationals. They wanted the fairboard to raise ticket prices to be more in-line with what they are charging up in Newton (probably so more people would head to Newton because ticket prices would be more comparable).
Having a $75 ticket price for the IRL race isn't going to help them either. KC IRL race was $45 face value and much cheaper if you checked out ebay or other auction sites. Have a group of 3 or more and it's cheaper to drive to KC, attend the races, go out to eat, and drive home than it is to go to Newton for the same series.
Don't get me wrong, I want Newton to succeed, just like I want Knoxville, Boone, Osky, 34 Raceway, etc., etc.. to succeed, but higher ticket prices, specials only (like Cappi suggested), bus races, donkey races, etc. aren't going to get the job done. As in any business, it takes $$ to make $$. Best thing Knoxville (or any other short-track for that matter) could do is go around to the local schools and give tickets to every kid 14-18 to get them to come out.
Hire some kids as consultants to find out what the track(s) should do to attract them to racing (may be as little as the free tickets or a special night for them to drive their street car around the track). Knoxville says they haven't figured out how to attract the younger crowd. How can you when the average age of the Fairboard is 55-60, Cappi is near 70, and you have no-one in the age bracket you are trying to attract on-staff.
I could rant all day about this, but as always, it will fall on deaf ears....
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When they started KC it was sold out for the truck and Indy cars. Now you can get seats real cheep for them. I sold two of mine which was top row right before the finish line with parking passes for a $100.00. This included in seat service. Felt lucky to get that for them. The same thing will happen at Newton in the future. It's a new track and everybody wants to see it and what they have to offer. Their comparable seats to mine in KC were much higher and thats is with no Cup or Bush races.
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May 08, 2007 at
07:45:37 AM
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Most speedway tracks in Australia have the same problems as your state tracks, Sydneys TPCR speedway which is the home of 410 sprintcar racing in Australia has fantastic car counts every week ( average car count 65 per week) but suffers from the same problem poor spectator attendance on a weekly basis.
TPCR are also working on how to improve their image and attract more customers to there weekly meetings.
The monster truck shows combined with a demolition derby always seems to fill the grandstands, this show combined with a fire breathing jet truck burning cars produced over 11000 people to the venue in late Oct last year. An average 410 sprintcar night may only get around 2/3000 paying public to a race meeting, not good enough.
There are to many other sporting options open to the public on a Sat night in Sydney for people to attend .
TCPR speedway are working hard on promoting their race track to win back their lost supporters as well, so dont feel that your tracks are the only ones with this problem, we are 17000 miles away with the same problem.
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May 08, 2007 at
08:27:13 AM
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wow...you guys act like you are going out of business out there!
Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better
weather." Van May
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May 08, 2007 at
12:03:20 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: BigRightRear on May 08 2007 at 08:27:13 AM
wow...you guys act like you are going out of business out there!
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us Iowa people are trying to keep the damn fenders away and run a race car only show, what part of that don't you understand?
Save your butt, get a colon screening TODAY
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Duane Davis
Laser Engraving
641-751-7777
101 N Center
Marshalltown, Iowa
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May 08, 2007 at
12:05:53 PM
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Wow it has taken this long for people to actually look at the demographics of our sport and realize that in a few years it will be for the most part much smaller and fading. One needs to start looking at X Games, Gen Y sports and how those are marketed and sold and why they attract the younger fan and those younger fans folks spend $$$$.
All I hear from these traditional SPRINT CAR fans is you can't make changes what about the tradition and integrity of the sport, well guess what tradition is fine but it does not sell TICKETS. Prmoters as they are called by their own admission are not marketers. They are not savvy when it comes to purchasing advertising nor are they skilled in new media. Folks young people do not watch traditional television and they also DO NOT READ THE NEWSPAPER. What do they carry and use OFTEN? Ta Dah! CELL PHONES! TEXT MESSAGING IS HOT and a great way to reach the young fans.
We need our events to be just that AN EVENT! Displays, activities things to do besides sit in the stands and watch the race. We need some personalities from our drivers. Yes they have talent and can drive a race car but heaven forbid they show some outrageous emotions why that would alienate our gray haired fans. TK is a great personality when he wins you would think he had never won before and that is AWESOME! Joey, Steve, Donny and some others win and it is like yeah whatever we won the race big deal. Thanks for coming out no big deal.
The other thing we have to do is go the HIGH SCHOOLS! GO TO THE TRADE SCHOOLS! Give these kids a $5.00 off coupon and get their butts to the seats. Get non traditional sponsors that activate at the races and do contests and reach new fans. If you think that this sport does not need corporate America you are dead wrong. Sponsors pay dollars and those dollars can lower ticket prices.
Kids 12 and under no matter what $5. An empty seat does not buy a coke or a hot dog. Here is a thought get X-Boxes with racing games build booths with them in it and hold a weekly VIDEO racing league at the track and award prizes at the end of the year. Catch you have to be there and race to gain points and win at the end of the year.... That would reach that generation ,,, now you have the fans involved.
Tradition is fine and dandy but when it stops putting butts in the seats it is time to shake things up or tradition will be all we have along with the memories.
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May 08, 2007 at
01:14:55 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: nodust on May 08 2007 at 12:03:20 PM
us Iowa people are trying to keep the damn fenders away and run a race car only show, what part of that don't you understand?
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you sign deals with diversified corporations and the next thing you know...E-MODS!
Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better
weather." Van May
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May 08, 2007 at
02:38:27 PM
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I have just read this full thread for the first time. The contributions for the most part are well-reasoned and written by people with good insight. And some excellent ideas.
Unfortunately it has also left me in a state of utter depression and sheer hopelessness...
www.sprintcardaily.com
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May 08, 2007 at
02:52:16 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: John Katich on May 07 2007 at 02:01:33 PM
You know, I was told by a fairboard member a couple of years ago that letting kids in free would result in the track being a cheap babysitter. My suggestion has always been that kids under sixteen that are accompanied by an adult should be allowed in free. Lord knows they have the seats. I am also a big proponent of involving the schools. Knoxville schools developed what they call SPRINT, which is a program that stresses basic human values to the students. I'm not sure if the track or some of the local racers are involved in this in some way but if they aren't, they should be. I'd be happy to get involved in helping organize assemblies or such in the schools if anyone with the track would be interested.
I'd like to see more involvement with English Creek Outlaw Dirt Kart Track. This is a big asset to the speedway. Eventually, more young racers will proceed to sprint cars from there, it seems all of these great young drivers in northern California started in dirt karts. What a great way to tie in young people, whether as racers or spectators.
The main reason I compare Iowa Speedway to Knoxville as an example is that they have done a wonderful job in getting visibility for the new track. I think it will continue to succeed and they will get some bigger races, likely trucks or Busch series. I just don't know why Knoxville has never been able to do similar things in getting the word out.
I don't want people to think I'm bashing the management and Cappy for no good reason. I want them to be successful and will do what I can to help. I just happen to strongly disagree with some of their logic. Knoxville and sprint car racing in general, is fortunate to have fans all over the country who are passionate and want to spread the word about the excitement and greatness of the sport.
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John,
Regarding your accompanied by an adult thought. Why? Parents arrive now, buy a kids ticket, and send their kids in with $20 and a cell phone to call when the races are over.
The only way to get the young crowd is to get out to the school systems and give away tickets. If the fairboard thinks they'll just become a cheap babysitter, they are fooling themselves. Give away the $3 ticket and take in the $10-20 they'll spend on food at the concession stand.
Don't they read the business section in any paper across the U.S..
The tween (pre-teen) and teen market make up roughly 1/2 of the discretionary spening in the US today. As a parent, I can attest to that (and I'm sure you can to). How much $$ do you fork over to your kids on a weekly basis so they can go to a movie, go to a basketball, football, soccer, baseball, track meet, etc. that they don't even participate in? More than you think if you put pencil to paper.
It is time for a change @ the racetrack in upper management (fairboard and Cappi). Going to the paper and whining about the state of things just rubs people the wrong way (even hard-core fans). I stayed home last week, and plan to this week as well, not because NASCAR is on tv or that I have other things planned. I just don't like the whining and crying Cappi is doing in the paper. If they think there is a problem, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, don't cry to the Register or the Journal-Express about it.
Do I have names in mind to replace any of those that need to be replaced, no I do not. However, I do have a list that would do a poorer job.
Bob Lawton (too many classes)
Mick Trier (see above, and back gate pricing too high)
Bruce Niemeth (no offense, but with the exception of the Sept. LM show, he has only hurt Knoxville, from the TV fiasco 2 years ago to the $5000 to win $47,000 purse WDRL show last month--that I enjoyed watching).
Brian Staley (the guy that promotes Osky, same reasons as Trier and Lawton)
Larry Kemp and Larry Boos (people are up in arms over Eldora's changes over the last 2 years).
just my $.02
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May 08, 2007 at
03:22:58 PM
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Andre
Why? You have to realize there's a problem before you can diagnose and fix it. By and large, since this has primarily become about Knoxville Raceway, I believe the track does a very good job in running its racing program. It's a top-notch facility, competitive and exciting racing that doesn't have agreat deal of "down-time", decent fan amenities, ect. The problem is marketing the product, getting people to experience sprint car racing in particular, letting people know you've got something of value for the entertainment dollar. There are more operating race tracks and more race fans per capita in Iowa than anywhere in the country I really believe there are opportunities here. I talk to other promoters around the country on a daily and weekly basis and in many places, both 410 car counts and fans are up from years past. I'm beginning to see some great ideas from the next generation of promoters and series people. Maybe Knoxville has a problem in marketing itself and new ideas can help. Maybe Knoxville has a demographics problem...believe it or not, the Des Moines area has a lot of things to do like any other metro area and more than enough sports entertainmnet for spectators. The DSM market is essential, though, given its younger demographic base than the rest of the state. I just want to see some open-mindedness in looking at new marketing ideas.
I don't want the product to essentially change. And that means I want to see big-time 410 or open competition sprint car racing. That's what MADE Knoxville. The worst thing Knoxville or the sport can do is let weekly 410 or open competition sprint car racing die. The fans generally won't support 360s. If there were only 40 or so traveling 410 teams, the Knoxville Nationals would fail to be relevant. I also don't think it's neccessary to essentially change the fan experience at a race. This is a SPORT first and foremost. I bristle when people talk about it being ENTERTAINMENT first. I'd probably have to take issue with some of the things "justbusiness" proposes, although I think he understands the demographics issue very well. I do not think it's neccessary to pander to Gen X. The key is getting young families to the track, bring the kids, have an affordable family night out. I see minor league baseball and such beginning to price themselves too high but the exposure these sports teams and events get from local TV and radio is enormous for the product they offer. That's what Knoxville and racing in general has to do. Iowa Speedway is doing a great job of that right now.
Cappy always had good relationships with local sports anchors and personalities in the past, guys like Jim Zabel from WHO-TV. The times were different then, but I really believe local racing has to get some airtime on the local news/sports shows. I don't want to lose out to womens tackle football or ultimate cage fighting or whatever goofy idea that gets passed off as sport anymore. I want racing (not NASCAR) to takes its place as a valued form of sports experience, beginning at the local level.
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May 08, 2007 at
03:46:13 PM
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I just love it when the IMPLY:
"Our attendance is down so let's give those that do attend a lesser product (360's)".
What marketing genius thought that up?
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May 08, 2007 at
03:50:54 PM
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Vande77
If you can't get an adult to accompany a kid under fourteen, you are playing right into the hands of the fairboard member that made the comment I described. And if you can't get parents to attend in that situation, then I'd probably have to take his side. I know that when my kid comes to the races, he's with me, whether in the stands or in the suites. He may hang out with friends while there, but I always know where he is. That's my parental responsibility and I take it seriously. How you enforce the "accompanied" rule could be a question. Maybe the "tweeners" make up a lot of the discretionary income in the country, but not at my house. My goal is to get families out to the track. Yes, get the kids "hooked" like McCarl says, but that should lead to Dad and Mom enjoying a night out too.
I wouldn't even speculate on who to run the place. I'm more interested in ideas. If the current people can figure it out, great.
And I continue to say, take away the top level of sprint car racing and you can kiss Knoxville goodbye.
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May 08, 2007 at
03:55:10 PM
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SRC
The answer probably is someone you know very well....
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May 08, 2007 at
04:00:16 PM
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Great thread. Nearly every track in the country is facing the same things. How to get more people in the seats. Lots of good ideas have been mentioned but one thing I haven't read yet is racer involvement. Racers have to be willing to help promote. I'm talking about appearances with the car around the area. Being available before the races to greet people coming in. Staying in the pits afterwards to greet and sign. Anything to allow more people to get closer would undoubtedly create more interest. We can't expect the promoters to do it all. Everyone has to be willing to help.
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May 08, 2007 at
04:04:28 PM
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Joined:
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12/22/2004
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Posts:
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126
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I've been going to knoxville since the early 60's (as a kid) and have only missed the 4 years I was in the Air Force.
Last year I thought I'd be a good racing fan and buy the Iowa Speedway Tickets which I was immediately upset with - the only choice I had was Upper or Lower deck and it was what the computer picked for me.
I though o-well - at least they (Iowa Speedway) are planning on working with the other tracks so as not to hurt anyone and help each other out, Several times last year Knoxville even used the Speedways pace car.
The Saturday USAC show was billed in all the publication I recieved from them was to be - Midget practice - Sprint practice - Silver Crown practice - Qualifing for all 3 classes, then heats races for all 3 classes - When we showed up on Saturday it was group qualifing for the midget and sprints 1 at a time for the silver crown and SEE you folks tomorrow. I was totally p-oed, and would have been even more so if I had paid the $17.00 walk up fee.
Well this year I was thinking hard about renewing my tickets - but when the schedule came out and they had a lot of events scheduled on Saturday nights against Knoxville it didn't take long to decide. I just counld not see buying season tickets and not attending a majority of the events.
I would like to see Knoxville maybe drop the latemodel shows and I'd even go so far as drop the woo for either the All-Stars or ASCS - perhaps even doing more with the IRA, Knoxville you don't need the outlaws for the Nationals.
Sorry for the ramblings - but I hope everyone understands what I'm saying.
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