Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Very interesting feature article by Rob Gray in the Sunday Des Moines Register today, detailing some of the issues around declining attendance and creative ways to bring fans to the track, featuring Knoxville Raceway and Ralph Capitani at length in the discussion. You can find this article by going to www.desmoinesregister.com. If you try to find it later than Sunday, you can look on the Sunday archive link and it should be there.

I'd like to see what you, as race fans, and those who are on here who are racing industry people, think about the state of local dirt track racing and the challenges and opportunities that exist. We will be talking about this on The Full Throttle Racing Show (www.usadirtracing.com at 8pm eastern on Tuesday) and hope to have Rob Gray as this week's co-host while also talking to some promoters from around the country about their situations and ideas. Please discuss on here as well as sending me emails that we can use during the show on Tuesday at [email protected]. This is something that affects us all as fans and racing industry people and I hope we can have on on-going discussion on the future of local racing, not just at Knoxville, or Iowa, but throughout the country.

Thanks, John Katich

Go back to the $10 nights and get rid of the every other week "special" show for $15-25.  You will make your money on food and beer sales.

Speed up the show (like this past Saturday night).

The main thing I see is that the racing isn't near as exciting as it was 20 years ago. Put the excitement of side by side racing back into the mix. As a fan for well over 40 years, I have found myself getting bored with the freight train racing of today. Many of the "Johnny come lately" fans of today think that when they see a race with a handfull of passes that they wittnessed a great race. If they could only see the racing of "yesteryear" when wheel to wheel battles throughout the field of every lap was the norm...

Member of this message board since 1997

The race track was to be commended for finally starting a race closer to on time last night. The races were over with, a couple of minutes before 10PM.

This is NOT an unreasonable goal for a family entertainment venue.

there was a lot of passing going on also.

maybe if this had of been the case for the past 20 years, we wouldn't have been having this discussion.

The lateness of the races and the more NON sprint car races that have been going on the past few years has made me wonder if I might not enjoy Saturday nights at other venues better myself. For the past 3 years, I have been doing soul searching myself as to whether I actually enjoy the sport, with all of the politics ect. anymore.

I have figured out that it is the people I know that make me want to return, not the races (or lack of).

Sprint car people are really great folks!

Save your butt, get a colon screening TODAY

For complete line of Sponsor Awards check out 
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Duane Davis

Laser Engraving 
641-751-7777
101 N Center
Marshalltown, Iowa 

years ago at knoxville the attendance started dropping I think that is when they thought making more nights more of special events would create more excitment and bring new and more people. Well I think it shown that this has not worked. I personally think theres too much compettiton for the few dollars people have to spend, between, cell phones, cable tv, internet, high priced video games( i spend more on these itmes than I use to at the races) combined with the increas in gas prices alot of folks like myself have cut back some I also do not like how Knoxville just seems to try to get more money at every chance and not just the track the whole town. This is the first year in 25 years that we did not buy our nationals tickets when they first came available, as the way they done the tickets and every year price increase just ticked me off to much. It sure seems to me like there are more tracks than ever and many of them try to run a saturday nights. I also think it is not hard to see when Nascar is racing on saturday night at the local track attendance always seems to be down. The decline is also getting to nascar also, their TV ratings are down (which I blame on what statione are they on anyway) and empty seats are found often and many tracks advertising seats available.

I am from eastern Pennsylvania, and the main thing that turns me off to probably 75 percent of the weekly shows out there is that around here it seems like almost every track has taken up a backgate mentality and run at least five divisions on a weekly basis. From where I live, I can watch Late Models, Sprint Cars or Modifieds all within two hours of my house.

The reason I go to Williams Grove and Lincoln more than anywhere else isn't necessarily because I am that much more of a Sprint Car fan than a Modified fan or a Late Model fan. It's just that I can go to the Grove or Lincoln and see a two or three division show with the headline feature running first and almost always over less than three hours after the show started.

Two weeks ago, I went to a DIRT Modified race at Orange County (N.Y.). I love going there because it really is the last of the great, old Northeastern Modified tracks still left, but the show started at 6 p.m. Intermission came at 10:45 p.m. and the headline Modified feature took the checkered flag at exactly midnight. Ten or 15 years ago, I wouldn't have minded sitting there all night during a six-hour show. But I skip places anymore that I know can't run a show in three hours.

The whole time I was driving home from Orange County, I just keep thinking to myself, "Wow, I don't think I will go back there for another Saturday night show this season."

last nights crowd at lincoln was awesome...if the weather cooperates they really pack them in.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

I realize this is a catch 22 for promoters. But adding School bus , mini van, donkey or chuck wagon races will only make me stay home. Attractting the casual fan who only wants to come once or twice a year with this kind of "Value added" entertainment does not seem the way to go to me. I think they need more hard core weekly fans. They need to get back those they have lost. Better racing, starting on time and getting over at a decent time will be a start. I remember when the fastest cars in a heat race did NOT start the race in a transfer spot.

Bottom line is: it is a lot easier to chase fans away than to win them back.

Knoxville wanted $360 for a season ticket that included 2 friday night late model shows I would not go to. They would not sell me one without those races included. They could have had my money for all the sprint car shows this year in March, inc those that end up getting rained out. Now they will get it a little each week. Also makes it easier to give in to my non race fan friends and go do something else on Saturday once in a while. Either way, they were not getting any money from me for late model shows.

All in all, I'm glad I'm not trying to earn a living owning or just promoting a local dirt track.

Population alone should make it easier for Pa tracks to "really pack them in"

State No. Population

Texas 71 22,859,968

Pennsylvania 58 12,429,616

California 57 36,132,147

Iowa 56 2,966,334

2 more tracks than Iowa, 4 times the population.

Well, I don't know about that analysis, Oswald. Yes, places like the Grove and Lincoln are "packing 'em in" on a weekly basis. But even around here, racing is on a definite downward spiral compared to 15-20 years ago. The track closest to my house is a local Modified track that I attended weekly for the better part of 15 years. In the span of 10 years, the crowd has been cut at least in half, if not more, and it is the same weekly show the place has always run.

Your point about racing needing more diehards is probably wishful thinking. I go to the horse races quite often and local auto racing is really starting to resemble the horse racing crowd. From your post, I assume you are a Knoxville regular? I imagine the Knoxville fanbase is pretty similar to the tracks here in PA. Look at around you next week at the races. It's not a young crowd at the races. A lot of those diehard fans from the 1960s, '70s and '80s are gone.

Not trying to flame you; just making a point.

Knoxville's World of Outlaws crowd a couple of weeks ago I'd estimate at about 5,000. I swear that 60-70% of those fans that I saw walk up to the ticket window were older than me (52). Not many families with kids, either.

If I take my wife and 3 daughters (all are race fans) to the WoO race this coming weekend I am looking at $160 just to get in the gate. Figure another $50 at the concession window, $20 in fuel and it's a $230 night.

If we just go to a weekly race, it's $54 to get through the gate and the concession and fuel bill is the same, so figure $125. Or.....$500 a month for the "hardcore fan".

There are a lot of families that just can't take that kind of hit for entertainment. That kind of money would buy a LOT of movie tickets.

Member of this message board since 1997

Because promoters are smarter than their fans, they will always have "reasons" not excuses for the races starting late.

They will always have "reasons: not excuses for high prices.

They will always have "reasons" not excuses for failing to deliver the entertainment that the paying grandstand people want to see.

This is NOT a new problem. The new problem is that other entertainment venues ARE now giving what the former race fans want to see or do.

The barn door has been open for years, people are just now noticing almost all the cows have left.

Save your butt, get a colon screening TODAY

For complete line of Sponsor Awards check out 
MarshallTownLaser.com

Duane Davis

Laser Engraving 
641-751-7777
101 N Center
Marshalltown, Iowa 

Yep, Knoxville regular. All I have to do is look around me on Saturday night. Every year a few more of the familiar faces are gone.

I know the more people within reasonable driving distance of a track the more potential fans you have.

I may be wrong (it happens) but I hate to see race tracks go the way of minor league baseball and fill in with a bunch of stupid crap. With 2 classes (and thats all that is needed) there should not be much down time anyway.

Sometimes in order to get someone to try your product (racing?) you have to give away free samples.

Iowa has 99 counties. What if Knoxville picked a different county each week and said: "show your ID from county X and get in free"? If they got 2000-3000 new fans that bought food at the concession, wouldn't that be a good deal?

www.Numbersusa.com  

The cost to a fan to come out to a WoO race is really something to think about. Obviously, tracks that have smaller capacity take a huge risk in booking and presenting a $90,000 event. I was happy to see Tri-State and Memphis hit home runs with their crowds. Attica had a good one, too. Those tracks need to get about 3,000 fans to break even. Of course, those ticket prices are going to be higher than what Knoxville or Eldora charge. I know all three track staffs I mentioned worked extremely hard to have a successful date and they were rewarded with GREAT weather at each venue. Knoxville had about 5,000...great weather. But what happens if there's a chance of rain or it's cold like it can get in April? Those tracks are taking a HUGE risk. A risk, that in these finacial times, can doom a good track.

Advance ticket sales are way down everywhere. Getting the walk-up is key. If I'm a promoter, I would be terribly nervous. If fans spend the kind of money that Hawker mentioned, how does that effect the local shows when WoO goes down the road? There's only so much to go around.

And another thing to be concerned about...and I'm not trying to be negative about the WoO because I believe the organization is making strides to provide better racing and trying to help tracks succeed...when you have 26 traveling teams, how does it effect the local racers? Very few, in most cases, have a chance to make any real money and it's tougher than ever to make the feature. The teams pay higher pit fees, have to buy an extra tire (usually) and lose out on a chance to make meaningful money that week at their local track.

Much of what Capitani said in Rob's article had to do with the thought of replacing 410's at the local level with 360's or 305's. He can talk about the cost factor to the racers, and there is something to be said there...but the truth is with promoters it's about not selling enough tickets to pay the purse. And what of the Nationals if there are only 35-40 410's left in the country? Cappy's not the only track operator to believe this. How do you think Emmett Hahn got this far?

Knoxville will not bring in the All-Stars because Cappy (or the fairboard or someone involved with the track) doesn't think an All-Stars date would sell because the drivers aren't known to the Knoxville fans. I say the All-Stars are the PERFECT group to bring in with a little creative marketing. That series costs a track about 40% of a WoO date, has drivers who are competitve with the Knoxville racers AND it gives the local drivers a chance to win some good money $5000 to win. But no, let's give the Late Models a date and let them race in front of 500 people. Why not a big weekend of racing with a Friday All-Stars show and a Saturday WoO date? I KNOW the All-Stars will sell...they had 3200 paid at Mayetta, KS. the Monday after Nationals last year but you have to sell it! 410's don't have to die...I think the Midwest All-Stars in ILL, IN, MO. can be a great steo forward in reversing the trend in the midwest.

Knoxville used to have a Silver Crown race at about $25 a ticket. They dropped it because management said it was too expensive and the fans didn't want them. Well, Iowa Speedway sold nearly 12,000 tickets to the USAC show Saturday. Many of those same drivers are going to be racing the USAC midget show at Knoxville in a few weeks. How many fans are going to be there? If last year was an indication, just a fraction of what was at Newton.

Sorry about the rant, but I just want to see Knoxville be what it should be...a major player in the sports scene in central Iowa. I know it can happen.

Racing is in a tough spot for sure. I've been a die hard for many, many years. The cost to attend is definately a factor for a lot of families, which is what feeds the next generation of fans. Had my parents not taken me, I would have probably never became the fan I am.

One problem for a family going to a race when compared to a major sports event is the cost to simply walk in the gate. Think of a major spors team for me the Cincinnati Reds are the closest. I can chose to sit in a $225 seat, or a $6 seat, and still see the game. Now the interesting part is the concessions all cost the same no matter where I sit, and I can't carry in my own alcohol and become blindingly drunk to ruin the night for everyone, I have to buy the $6 beer to get drunk.

But the point is I can take my family of five and choose how much it costs to get in, whether it be $40 or $500 we have a choice. Racing doesn't afford this choice and understandably so because they don't have 40,000 seats. But maybe have a family plan where Mom & Dad and the kids get into a WoO event for $100 or whatever the cost may be. Again I realize there are only so many seats, and you need x dollars per seat, but also realize if you don't allow carry in coolers the folks will buy concessions with what money they have left in their pocket.

Why can't a track have a few family nights for regular shows where the family can get in for $20. If the kids enjoy themselves they will bug their parents to go back, and thus your attendence problem could be solved in a couple of years.

Finally, just run a good program without stupid needless delays. Most promoters could take a page from Gene Frankharts playbook from Attica Ohio's racetrack from a few years back. He realized not everyone lived right around the corner and some had a long drive home, so he ran the races and got the fans out at a decent hour, almost always by 10:00pm. For those who want to hang around longer, then stay, but I don't like getting home at 2:00am any more. Plus when I take my kids, leaving the track at 12:30 is not any fun. I can't count how many times I've seen parents, myself included, leaving with kids that are asleep at 11:00 or later totally pissed because they didn't get to see the feature due to tracks screwing around. I'm not talking about weather or accident delays, just plain screwing around.

One final thing, ditch the driver intros for goodness sake and just run the damn race, that's all just run the race. You never know what will happen during a feature, big wreck or whatever and screwing around for a half an hour to add pageantry is stupid, Just run the race and give us what we paid to see.

I NEVER thought I"d write a "Dear John"letter but here it is :

Dear John---Just had to thank you for bringing the very interesting column from the Sunday Des Moines Register about the future of short track racing to our attention.

I wish there could be a possibility to create that feeling again.That feeling that if you didn't make it to the races at Olympic Stadium on Sunday night that you would miss out on a night that might produce controversy ! And talk about racing ! They had it !

This of course refers to an era even older than Hawker's.But we have had the opportunity to observe the current as well as the 50's60's and all points in between.SO let's talk about NOW.

We are privileged to attend Lakeside Speedway on a weekly basis and they seem to be doing exactly what any fan would want.A well run program presenting 3 classes of cars,ALWAYS starting on time !Racing that is well above average and they have you on your way home about 3 hours later.

With decent weather Lakeside can pack them in.

As it turned out when the Kansas Speedway was built right up the road Lakeside can even enjoy some of the "spillover"from their large events if the timing allows it.

Being lower than the flood plain makes them vulnerable to the amounts of rain that we have had so they are fighting the elements as much as any other part of the country.It's not looking good at all right now for many of us.

I ALWAYS REMEMBER THE WORDS OF A WELL KNOWN MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER.

He said:ALWAYS remember that the race is the dress ! All the rest is just the hem ! Bud's Bride

John K.,

Don't forget that Newton actually counts those that purchase season tickets and booth seats whether they attend or not. If they sold 10,000 season tickets and booth seating before the season began, attendance is 10,000 even if no one shows up. This is something that Knoxville has always seemed to have forgotten.

Now for another point.

2 weeks ago, Rob Gray reported in the Register that less than 1000 showed up the the WDRL race. Funny, I was in the stands and I would have put it at around 1500 in the stands, plus the 52 VIP suites that hold from 8-16 on the Frontstretch and 20 at the Hall of Fame (that are pre-sold at the beginning of the season). By a conservative estimate (using 10 per suite for a count) there are 520 people in the suites (pre-paid admission to every single race, not just the ones they show up for).

No offense to anyone, but Knoxville needs to revamp their entire structure. Eliminate the Fairboard running the day to day business (Brian Stickel is probably their best hire in 20 years). Business people understand that you have to spend $$ to make $$. That means advertising, promotions, giving away free tickets, give-aways for kids, etc..

I have had 3 fairboard members say to me already this season "We are over-budget on advertising. We need to quit spending the money, people will show up." How crazy is that? We are having attendance decline, so lets not let anyone know we are having races???

Time to start over with a new fairboard (and make it fair and have the election held during the general election instead of in secrecy) and let the people of Marion County elect them. Maybe as a bonus, we'd actually have a nice County Fair too (although I wouldn't get my hopes up).

Is attendance an issue across the county, I'm sure it is, but the days of opening the gates and putting on races are over. I had multilpe choices of things to do last weekend alone (I live in K'ville). Go to the races, stay home and watch Napcar, go up to Newton and watch USAC, go watch the Iowa Stars playoff hockey, go to a movie (Spiderman 3 did $150 million over the 3 day weekend, tell me advertising doesn't help you), take my kids to the park, go out to eat with my family.

If I wasn't a die-hard race fan, the races wouldn't even be on my radar, I haven't seen a TV commercial, heard a radio commercial, or seen advertising for the races all year (except in the Knoxville paper that gets maybe 500 readers weekly).

Just my $.02

Vande77, you make a good point in how ticket sales ar counted. At the same time, good job by the folks at Iowa Speedway to have season ticket packages that people, or corporations will buy for a variety of events. Those tickets were purchased, one way or the other. I, too, hope Brian Stickel can get things turned around. He has experience. Let's hope the fairboard let's him do what needs to be done. Speaking of the fairboard and the things you mentioned...I'm in agreement with you but I don't think I'd wait for a change in the way things are conducted.

While I didn't attend the WDRL race (kid's track meet), I did check out the crowd on the way home by stopping off on the backstretch stands for a minute. Looked like far less than a thousand from that vantage point, at least to me.

One of the things Knoxville, or any other track or sports team, needs to do is develope relationships with local media in Des Moines. Frankly, in this day of bottom line business, that means you have to buy that influence. I worked out a deal with a local sports talk show to do on ongoing Friday afternoon segment on local racing. One week, I got bumped because the station had an advertising deal with a womens tackle football team in my slot. Another week, it was because of minor league hockey. The number of listeners I brought to the station wasn't important it seems. There ARE race fans in central Iowa. Aside from Rob Gray's reporting, (Rob and Jeff Olsen before him are really outstanding) the local media pokes fun and racing and thinks we are all a bunch of rubes. Iowa Speedway gets segments on the TV news and radio all the time. That's because that's what Mike Beecher does...he works with mainstream media and does one heck of a job. It doesn't hurt that he also has financial resources available as well.

Capitani talked about reasons for a decline in attendance. I see opportunities. High gas prices? Work out a deal with Casey's for a free ticket with every $20 gas purchase. It doesn't cost the track anything...how much is an empty seat worth? Casinos? Why not give away tickets to the races for the first 500 people through one day a week or tie in some kind of promotion. Same with Adventureland Park. Didn't Knoxville used to have its banquet there? Maybe have media day to promote an upcoming event. Des Moines TV and radio guys can do remotes or even complete shows from Knoxville and maybe get a dinner and two-seater rides. Those are just thoughts, maybe there are reasons why it can't happen but I'd like to see something tried at least. Advertising works, you just have to do it right.

And to reinterate what I've said before, quit using 410's as a pawn. If you can see anything from the DM register's article, it's that the COST of fielding a 410 from the competitor's standpoint isn't what will kill local 410 racing, it's the inability to sell tickets that will do it. And that just doesn't have to happen.