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Topic: Schatz questions Outlaw format Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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longtimemitchfan
October 07, 2019 at 02:19:44 PM
Joined: 06/27/2012
Posts: 749
Reply

It sounded on Saturday night that Schatz doesnt really agree with the Outlaw format ,he said on Saturday that he felt the race was decided by the pill draw 

I am not a big Schatz fan and was glad that Marks won a win for everybody but agree with Donny that at least four and maybe five of the top twelve could have won had they pulled the front row of a dash.j




shernernum
October 07, 2019 at 02:44:12 PM
Joined: 08/28/2014
Posts: 397
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: longtimemitchfan on October 07 2019 at 02:19:44 PM

It sounded on Saturday night that Schatz doesnt really agree with the Outlaw format ,he said on Saturday that he felt the race was decided by the pill draw 

I am not a big Schatz fan and was glad that Marks won a win for everybody but agree with Donny that at least four and maybe five of the top twelve could have won had they pulled the front row of a dash.j



He may have been questioning it, however as a high level driver with a high level team, I don't think we would like the alternative he would propose which would probably starting the dashes heads up based on time trial laps.



dsc1600
October 07, 2019 at 03:17:39 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
Reply

I think the WoO should change the format for races with over 48 cars (6 heats).

They should run one dash with only heat race winners or require the 49th car on back to tag the back of the C or D and run 4 12 car heat races. The extreme disadvantage of potentially starting 12th in a 40 lap race because of a bad draw is too punitive in today’s racing. 




Hooper31
October 07, 2019 at 03:24:43 PM
Joined: 09/03/2017
Posts: 364
Reply

I didn't hear him complaining or questioning. He was explaining that he understands the realities of the format for any one given night. He knows that over the course of a whole season there are going to be pill draws that help and pill draws that hurt. 



Bolts55
October 07, 2019 at 03:29:42 PM
Joined: 04/16/2018
Posts: 4
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: longtimemitchfan on October 07 2019 at 02:19:44 PM

It sounded on Saturday night that Schatz doesnt really agree with the Outlaw format ,he said on Saturday that he felt the race was decided by the pill draw 

I am not a big Schatz fan and was glad that Marks won a win for everybody but agree with Donny that at least four and maybe five of the top twelve could have won had they pulled the front row of a dash.j



Ok, I have to give my 2 cents.  I hardly ever post anything on forums, but I can’t sit by and not give my opinion on this ongoing topic.  I have been going to races every week for the past 46 years and have zero alliance to any particular series, division, track or driver.  I just love the sport of dirt track racing and can’t think of anything better to do on weekends.  That being said…I am starting to have a real problem with the big shows, especially the World of Outlaws.  Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?  Ok, you have to sit through 45-60 minutes of (1) car at time going (2) laps to set their heat position.  Then, you will have to sit through (8) laps of heats with zero passing and no position changes.  After that you will have a long pill draw to set the dash line up.  Then the B main with again no passing at all.  Next will be the dash with virtually no passing, except maybe on the first half lap.  Finally, you have some excitement on the start of the main event for maybe the first (5) laps.  Once the cars are spread out, it’s follow the leader until the checkered flag.  How do you sell this premise to fans that are new to the sport?  So basically, you are sitting through a 4 or 5 hour show to watch the fastest drivers start up front and dominate the race.  If we are honest to ourselves, how many exciting Outlaw shows have we seen in Central PA the last 5 years?  I have been to almost all of them, and I can’t remember a single time I left excited.  I just wish there was a way that all the owners of the series, tracks and drivers can think of way to capitalize on the resurgence of Sprint Car racing so that the racing is more compelling to the casual fans.  I am not pretending I have the answers (I don’t), but how long is the wave of popularity of sprint car racing going to last if the biggest and the most powerful brand in the sport doesn’t make some minor tweaks in their package rules and format?  I am sure I am not alone but when I go to the races, I want to see passing throughout the night and an exciting finish once in a while. 

 

Again, my goal is not to bash the WOO, but want to see minor changes before it’s too late.



longtimemitchfan
October 07, 2019 at 04:38:28 PM
Joined: 06/27/2012
Posts: 749
Reply

I ESPECIALLY AGREE  with the previous post on the heat races between the two nights they had 12 heat races and the only one that had a pass  after two laps was when Schatz was able to pass to make the dash (that came after a yellow).

Maybe heats should be two five lap scgments after five laps reverse the original starting order and giving passing points.




HoldenCaulfield
October 07, 2019 at 05:48:59 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 2434
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on October 07 2019 at 03:17:39 PM

I think the WoO should change the format for races with over 48 cars (6 heats).

They should run one dash with only heat race winners or require the 49th car on back to tag the back of the C or D and run 4 12 car heat races. The extreme disadvantage of potentially starting 12th in a 40 lap race because of a bad draw is too punitive in today’s racing. 



Yeah I remember when they ran 4 heat races with 12 or more cars for events with high car counts. Is their a rule now that you can't start more than 9 cars in a heat? I also remember when car counts (greater than 35 I think?) meant 1 lap time trials, although nowadays with transponders, I'm just completely baffled why they wouldn't have at least 2 cars on the track at a time for TT's. On a track the size of WG, you could easily do 4. 


A

6416
October 07, 2019 at 06:25:06 PM
Joined: 04/25/2016
Posts: 75
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Bolts55 on October 07 2019 at 03:29:42 PM

Ok, I have to give my 2 cents.  I hardly ever post anything on forums, but I can’t sit by and not give my opinion on this ongoing topic.  I have been going to races every week for the past 46 years and have zero alliance to any particular series, division, track or driver.  I just love the sport of dirt track racing and can’t think of anything better to do on weekends.  That being said…I am starting to have a real problem with the big shows, especially the World of Outlaws.  Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?  Ok, you have to sit through 45-60 minutes of (1) car at time going (2) laps to set their heat position.  Then, you will have to sit through (8) laps of heats with zero passing and no position changes.  After that you will have a long pill draw to set the dash line up.  Then the B main with again no passing at all.  Next will be the dash with virtually no passing, except maybe on the first half lap.  Finally, you have some excitement on the start of the main event for maybe the first (5) laps.  Once the cars are spread out, it’s follow the leader until the checkered flag.  How do you sell this premise to fans that are new to the sport?  So basically, you are sitting through a 4 or 5 hour show to watch the fastest drivers start up front and dominate the race.  If we are honest to ourselves, how many exciting Outlaw shows have we seen in Central PA the last 5 years?  I have been to almost all of them, and I can’t remember a single time I left excited.  I just wish there was a way that all the owners of the series, tracks and drivers can think of way to capitalize on the resurgence of Sprint Car racing so that the racing is more compelling to the casual fans.  I am not pretending I have the answers (I don’t), but how long is the wave of popularity of sprint car racing going to last if the biggest and the most powerful brand in the sport doesn’t make some minor tweaks in their package rules and format?  I am sure I am not alone but when I go to the races, I want to see passing throughout the night and an exciting finish once in a while. 

 

Again, my goal is not to bash the WOO, but want to see minor changes before it’s too late.



Rules need to be changed to give the cars less grip and make the driver & mechanics more of a factor. Cars are just too locked down. Outlaws have a distinct advantage at time trials since they do it every show. Posse was not very lucky at the draws this year either,Of the six WoO races the grove had I only went on the first night. Used to go to all of them, but after a while it gets old.



dsc1600
October 07, 2019 at 06:45:00 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: HoldenCaulfield on October 07 2019 at 05:48:59 PM

Yeah I remember when they ran 4 heat races with 12 or more cars for events with high car counts. Is their a rule now that you can't start more than 9 cars in a heat? I also remember when car counts (greater than 35 I think?) meant 1 lap time trials, although nowadays with transponders, I'm just completely baffled why they wouldn't have at least 2 cars on the track at a time for TT's. On a track the size of WG, you could easily do 4. 



1 laps time trials have been rejected by the drivers apparently.

I’m not  huge fan of multiple car time trials but at the Grove,  with the stupid split pit area, it would speed the show up alot.




chad1888
October 07, 2019 at 06:53:10 PM
Joined: 12/19/2013
Posts: 15
Reply

what if they ran the knoxville system at every show, and your points total for the night would be how they score the championship points. so if you have a perfect night you would get 500 points for the championship. tt, then invert in heat and take top whatever, then line up b by points and race. that would bring nationals type intensity to every track.



cheroger
October 07, 2019 at 07:03:21 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1022
Reply

Regardless of time trial time and heat race finish, how about a rule that the previous A-main feature winners best starting position is the 3rd row outside?



Nick14
October 07, 2019 at 09:59:35 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
Reply

Out of all the ideas that have been stated, and some are intriguing, the big question will be. What happens when you still have front row winners of the heat & feature?

It will happen & will happen more than most think. I just think some automatically think that oh there is an invert so everything is going to be exciting. 2013 & 2014 this board had the same threads about front row or top 2 row winners. I'd much rather have the best team win and lead all 30laps versus a team that formatted or inverted it's way to lead all 30laps.

As far as Schatz goes, I don't think he was criticizing but if he was, he hasn't had a problem with it the past 3years when he was winning all the time. Now he does? Again, I don't think he was criticizing though

 




jax-webguy
MyWebsite
October 07, 2019 at 11:01:28 PM
Joined: 07/03/2010
Posts: 102
Reply
This message was edited on October 08, 2019 at 04:21:27 AM by jax-webguy

"Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?"

Yes I can.  I've spoken to a solid 30 or more of them over the past couple of weeks, and 6 of them I work with every day that still can't quit talking about it after watching the WOO at Jacksonville a few weeks ago.

They don't care about the format or who is transfering where.  They are captivated by the speed, the daring moves, the balls of those in the cockpit... and the pomp and circumstance an outlaw event brings.   It's not the first-timers that are following the format trying to get their arms around the X's and O's of the bracketology.   It takes them a solid 3 hours to just to get their arms around the intensity.

The conversations in the days following aren't about "why did this guy start way back when he won the race earlier in the night" etc.  It's about "Did you see that dude driving the 17 car?  He was wild. Did you see him spin out?  I thought he was going to win it, That cat in the 2 car was fast all night.  Where's he from?  How do they not crash all the time going that fast?  How many horsepower do those things make?  I loved that little kid that said that thing that the announcer said. He was cute."

That's the experience of a first timer - and they will come back as long as you can get them there the first time to experience the show.   It's the veteran fan that worrries about actually making all the pieces of the puzzle make sense in determining the ultimate winner.

Speaking of big fields with a lot of heats and B and C Mains - How about if we just eliminate half of those at some single night shows with big fields just to raise the stakes and build the intensity.  You show up and you either prove yourself one of the fastest 20ish cars there early in the night or you go home.   Whether that's only the fastest 30 qualifiers participate in the remainder of the events - or there's nothing left to race in if you don't transfer out of your heat. (No consi's) or whatever.  

 



frebyrd
October 08, 2019 at 05:12:22 AM
Joined: 07/07/2012
Posts: 90
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: jax-webguy on October 07 2019 at 11:01:28 PM

"Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?"

Yes I can.  I've spoken to a solid 30 or more of them over the past couple of weeks, and 6 of them I work with every day that still can't quit talking about it after watching the WOO at Jacksonville a few weeks ago.

They don't care about the format or who is transfering where.  They are captivated by the speed, the daring moves, the balls of those in the cockpit... and the pomp and circumstance an outlaw event brings.   It's not the first-timers that are following the format trying to get their arms around the X's and O's of the bracketology.   It takes them a solid 3 hours to just to get their arms around the intensity.

The conversations in the days following aren't about "why did this guy start way back when he won the race earlier in the night" etc.  It's about "Did you see that dude driving the 17 car?  He was wild. Did you see him spin out?  I thought he was going to win it, That cat in the 2 car was fast all night.  Where's he from?  How do they not crash all the time going that fast?  How many horsepower do those things make?  I loved that little kid that said that thing that the announcer said. He was cute."

That's the experience of a first timer - and they will come back as long as you can get them there the first time to experience the show.   It's the veteran fan that worrries about actually making all the pieces of the puzzle make sense in determining the ultimate winner.

Speaking of big fields with a lot of heats and B and C Mains - How about if we just eliminate half of those at some single night shows with big fields just to raise the stakes and build the intensity.  You show up and you either prove yourself one of the fastest 20ish cars there early in the night or you go home.   Whether that's only the fastest 30 qualifiers participate in the remainder of the events - or there's nothing left to race in if you don't transfer out of your heat. (No consi's) or whatever.  

 



I have went to Grove since around 1968. I use to take guys from work along to show how great it was.Now days no way would i ask a new fan to time trial show at Grove. Put fastest guy on pole for 8 laps and narrow track, Most nights the heats look like a warm up session.  Even the weekly shows don't handicap like they use to. SAD!! Still love sprint cars , just glad i went when they had to pass.



alum.427
October 08, 2019 at 05:48:08 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 1599
Reply

I wonder how many times donny benefitted from "winning the pill draw" ???




alum.427
October 08, 2019 at 05:48:44 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 1599
Reply

I wonder how many times donny benefitted from "winning the pill draw" ???



beezr2002
October 08, 2019 at 08:21:25 AM
Joined: 04/21/2017
Posts: 1116
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: jax-webguy on October 07 2019 at 11:01:28 PM

"Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?"

Yes I can.  I've spoken to a solid 30 or more of them over the past couple of weeks, and 6 of them I work with every day that still can't quit talking about it after watching the WOO at Jacksonville a few weeks ago.

They don't care about the format or who is transfering where.  They are captivated by the speed, the daring moves, the balls of those in the cockpit... and the pomp and circumstance an outlaw event brings.   It's not the first-timers that are following the format trying to get their arms around the X's and O's of the bracketology.   It takes them a solid 3 hours to just to get their arms around the intensity.

The conversations in the days following aren't about "why did this guy start way back when he won the race earlier in the night" etc.  It's about "Did you see that dude driving the 17 car?  He was wild. Did you see him spin out?  I thought he was going to win it, That cat in the 2 car was fast all night.  Where's he from?  How do they not crash all the time going that fast?  How many horsepower do those things make?  I loved that little kid that said that thing that the announcer said. He was cute."

That's the experience of a first timer - and they will come back as long as you can get them there the first time to experience the show.   It's the veteran fan that worrries about actually making all the pieces of the puzzle make sense in determining the ultimate winner.

Speaking of big fields with a lot of heats and B and C Mains - How about if we just eliminate half of those at some single night shows with big fields just to raise the stakes and build the intensity.  You show up and you either prove yourself one of the fastest 20ish cars there early in the night or you go home.   Whether that's only the fastest 30 qualifiers participate in the remainder of the events - or there's nothing left to race in if you don't transfer out of your heat. (No consi's) or whatever.  

 



Big Big difference between the racing at Jacksonville vs. the grove. 



Michael_N
October 08, 2019 at 09:47:24 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 720
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Bolts55 on October 07 2019 at 03:29:42 PM

Ok, I have to give my 2 cents.  I hardly ever post anything on forums, but I can’t sit by and not give my opinion on this ongoing topic.  I have been going to races every week for the past 46 years and have zero alliance to any particular series, division, track or driver.  I just love the sport of dirt track racing and can’t think of anything better to do on weekends.  That being said…I am starting to have a real problem with the big shows, especially the World of Outlaws.  Can you imagine if you brought a friend that never saw a Sprint car show to WOO event?  Ok, you have to sit through 45-60 minutes of (1) car at time going (2) laps to set their heat position.  Then, you will have to sit through (8) laps of heats with zero passing and no position changes.  After that you will have a long pill draw to set the dash line up.  Then the B main with again no passing at all.  Next will be the dash with virtually no passing, except maybe on the first half lap.  Finally, you have some excitement on the start of the main event for maybe the first (5) laps.  Once the cars are spread out, it’s follow the leader until the checkered flag.  How do you sell this premise to fans that are new to the sport?  So basically, you are sitting through a 4 or 5 hour show to watch the fastest drivers start up front and dominate the race.  If we are honest to ourselves, how many exciting Outlaw shows have we seen in Central PA the last 5 years?  I have been to almost all of them, and I can’t remember a single time I left excited.  I just wish there was a way that all the owners of the series, tracks and drivers can think of way to capitalize on the resurgence of Sprint Car racing so that the racing is more compelling to the casual fans.  I am not pretending I have the answers (I don’t), but how long is the wave of popularity of sprint car racing going to last if the biggest and the most powerful brand in the sport doesn’t make some minor tweaks in their package rules and format?  I am sure I am not alone but when I go to the races, I want to see passing throughout the night and an exciting finish once in a while. 

 

Again, my goal is not to bash the WOO, but want to see minor changes before it’s too late.



Well said. I attend the WoO races at my local track but have not traveled to see them in 15 years. The racing outside of the feature just isn't very good. Couple other folks touched on it but the main problem is traction. Everybody is fast. The really good racers used to have an advantage even if another driver had a better car. The crazy wing angles not only give everyone gobs of downforce but make it harder for the car behind to follow. Tilt the wings back to 15 degrees, get rid of those crazy expensive shocks and let's see who really knows how to drive these things. 




longtimefan
October 08, 2019 at 12:06:21 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 845
Reply

Some tracks have learned how to loosen them up a little without a parade around the bottom but some complain about that also. 



Igo-Ono
October 08, 2019 at 01:00:26 PM
Joined: 12/14/2004
Posts: 133
Reply

All I know is that I see far more passing and side-by-side racing at a nonwing race than at a winged race. That’s always been true to some extent, but these days the disparity is overwhelming. Whatever the format, it seems like nearly every winged heat race is indistinguishable from a hot lap session. 

The traction and aerodynamics of today’s winged cars make the cars go really fast but hinder the actual racing. 





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