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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Topic: Question on engine costs Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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MandGRacing96
June 08, 2018 at 09:18:46 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 213
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So Ive seen on here alot, that the demise of sprint car racing as we know it is the price of engines.  What is the most expensive parts on the engine?  The heads and all the work that goes into them?  Also what could be done to curb these costs?  Compression limits?  Less cnc work allowed on heads?  Just wondering if its a easy fix, and if so why hasnt it been done?  Thanks for any replies




blazer00
June 08, 2018 at 09:35:44 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2153
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Posted By: MandGRacing96 on June 08 2018 at 09:18:46 AM

So Ive seen on here alot, that the demise of sprint car racing as we know it is the price of engines.  What is the most expensive parts on the engine?  The heads and all the work that goes into them?  Also what could be done to curb these costs?  Compression limits?  Less cnc work allowed on heads?  Just wondering if its a easy fix, and if so why hasnt it been done?  Thanks for any replies



Because then the big money teams might not dominate, and domination is what the WoO has always been about. But there is more to the spending than just the engines.



LeviArMo
MyWebsite
June 08, 2018 at 10:11:36 AM
Joined: 06/08/2018
Posts: 2
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Posted By: MandGRacing96 on June 08 2018 at 09:18:46 AM

So Ive seen on here alot, that the demise of sprint car racing as we know it is the price of engines.  What is the most expensive parts on the engine?  The heads and all the work that goes into them?  Also what could be done to curb these costs?  Compression limits?  Less cnc work allowed on heads?  Just wondering if its a easy fix, and if so why hasnt it been done?  Thanks for any replies



For a ascs 360 alot of it has to do with a few parts. If you spend good $$ on heads($8k-10k) and a block($5k-7k) do you want to put a cheap crank and rods in the engine. If those cheap parts break they take out your expensive ones.

Also, the injection setups are about $10k for a high end kinsler. Then the timing and front covers are $1-2k, oil pump ($1-1.5k). So far I'm at $25-30k and there are still the crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, oil pan, filters, and other miscellaneous parts before labor is added. 

A cheap motor with new parts is around $25k using the cheapest components you can get just for the parts. It will cost a few grand to get machine work done and a couple Grand to assemble it. So about $30k for a motor that is down around 100hp from the high end ones that cost $45-50k. 

In NY guys can run really well with the cheaper motor since the tracks are slick. There really isn't a good way to get costs down. Everything on these cars is custom made and the companies that make them are not make 100,000 so the costs are high per part. Couple that with the big teams willing to spend big money for a few hp and boom costs to compete skyrocket.

 



kart31rac
MyWebsite
June 08, 2018 at 10:29:09 AM
Joined: 08/04/2010
Posts: 53
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Nobody wants to here this on this fourm, but pull the wings off and it levels the playing field. You cant take a 15 year old -12 head motor and win with the outlaws or even make the show. But you can with WAR and be competive with USAC on the short tracks. All of us dont have deep pockets or a sugar Daddy, But we still want to race and put on a great show for the fans. JMO



staggerman
June 08, 2018 at 10:52:21 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 554
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Posted By: kart31rac on June 08 2018 at 10:29:09 AM

Nobody wants to here this on this fourm, but pull the wings off and it levels the playing field. You cant take a 15 year old -12 head motor and win with the outlaws or even make the show. But you can with WAR and be competive with USAC on the short tracks. All of us dont have deep pockets or a sugar Daddy, But we still want to race and put on a great show for the fans. JMO



Take your -12 to a USAC race (I-80 or Knoxville this weekend) and see how you finish.  Yeah, on perhaps select nights when it is slick your -12 might get a top 10 but otherwise in the back of the pack or B main. The front runners in USAC are running Kistlers, Speedway and Don Otts with the same motor expense. Yeah, non winged you might be able to run a few more nights on them but the expense is still there.



linbob
June 08, 2018 at 12:03:25 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1167
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Posted By: MandGRacing96 on June 08 2018 at 09:18:46 AM

So Ive seen on here alot, that the demise of sprint car racing as we know it is the price of engines.  What is the most expensive parts on the engine?  The heads and all the work that goes into them?  Also what could be done to curb these costs?  Compression limits?  Less cnc work allowed on heads?  Just wondering if its a easy fix, and if so why hasnt it been done?  Thanks for any replies



Rules to keep costs down has  to be something easy to police.  I think reduce inj stack size from 3 inch to 2 1/2 inch,  lower dompression to  say 14 to 1.  These can be checked easy.  They rebuid engines all the time to to replace higher comp pistons to 14 to 1 would be no big deal.  WOO only check car and driver at 1400 lbs.  Most tracks do not have staff to tear an engine down, and who in hell would want someone to tear heads off of an engine you just paid $50,000 for.  Cubic inch is also easy to check.



GTigers55
June 08, 2018 at 06:11:43 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 385
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Posted By: kart31rac on June 08 2018 at 10:29:09 AM

Nobody wants to here this on this fourm, but pull the wings off and it levels the playing field. You cant take a 15 year old -12 head motor and win with the outlaws or even make the show. But you can with WAR and be competive with USAC on the short tracks. All of us dont have deep pockets or a sugar Daddy, But we still want to race and put on a great show for the fans. JMO



Brian Smith got passed on the last lap by Vandervere in Michigan Last week and missed the show by one spot with WoO. He is running a -12 engine that was built in 1997.



Shortie12
MyWebsite
June 08, 2018 at 06:55:58 PM
Joined: 12/11/2008
Posts: 342
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Posted By: GTigers55 on June 08 2018 at 06:11:43 PM

Brian Smith got passed on the last lap by Vandervere in Michigan Last week and missed the show by one spot with WoO. He is running a -12 engine that was built in 1997.



The ASCS head rule was a start but that got changed.You cant stop people from spending.RaceSaver is still affordable and they are sticking by their rules and its working. The WOO is the  premier class and it takes high horsepower and good chasis plus a good crew.The only problem with the high dollar motors is the local Knoxville regulars have to spend the same amount to be competitive when the Nationals come to town.The crowd would love it if Brown ,Madsen, McCarl or anyone but a true WOO regular could win it.



cheroger
June 08, 2018 at 11:36:05 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 867
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Just one simple rule change.  No engine changes.  The motor used to hot lap or qualify with can not be swapped for another motor.



hardon
June 09, 2018 at 01:28:27 AM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 79
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Posted By: linbob on June 08 2018 at 12:03:25 PM

Rules to keep costs down has  to be something easy to police.  I think reduce inj stack size from 3 inch to 2 1/2 inch,  lower dompression to  say 14 to 1.  These can be checked easy.  They rebuid engines all the time to to replace higher comp pistons to 14 to 1 would be no big deal.  WOO only check car and driver at 1400 lbs.  Most tracks do not have staff to tear an engine down, and who in hell would want someone to tear heads off of an engine you just paid $50,000 for.  Cubic inch is also easy to check.



I agree with rules needing to be be easy to police.  What I posted before is, what about a gear rule to keep the max RPMs around 7,000?  That would take all of 5 minutes to check.



Dryslick Willie
June 09, 2018 at 05:38:59 AM
Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 1244
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Posted By: Shortie12 on June 08 2018 at 06:55:58 PM

The ASCS head rule was a start but that got changed.You cant stop people from spending.RaceSaver is still affordable and they are sticking by their rules and its working. The WOO is the  premier class and it takes high horsepower and good chasis plus a good crew.The only problem with the high dollar motors is the local Knoxville regulars have to spend the same amount to be competitive when the Nationals come to town.The crowd would love it if Brown ,Madsen, McCarl or anyone but a true WOO regular could win it.



I think Brown or Madsen could win the Nationals.   Brown passed Schatz on lap 44 a few years ago and could have won it that year.   Seems like Madsen has a podium finish the last few years too.   You are correct about how the crowd would react if Brown won it, and I'd love to see that.   



Wesmar
June 11, 2018 at 10:16:32 AM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 592
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Posted By: LeviArMo on June 08 2018 at 10:11:36 AM

For a ascs 360 alot of it has to do with a few parts. If you spend good $$ on heads($8k-10k) and a block($5k-7k) do you want to put a cheap crank and rods in the engine. If those cheap parts break they take out your expensive ones.

Also, the injection setups are about $10k for a high end kinsler. Then the timing and front covers are $1-2k, oil pump ($1-1.5k). So far I'm at $25-30k and there are still the crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, oil pan, filters, and other miscellaneous parts before labor is added. 

A cheap motor with new parts is around $25k using the cheapest components you can get just for the parts. It will cost a few grand to get machine work done and a couple Grand to assemble it. So about $30k for a motor that is down around 100hp from the high end ones that cost $45-50k. 

In NY guys can run really well with the cheaper motor since the tracks are slick. There really isn't a good way to get costs down. Everything on these cars is custom made and the companies that make them are not make 100,000 so the costs are high per part. Couple that with the big teams willing to spend big money for a few hp and boom costs to compete skyrocket.

 



  Top of the line Kinsler or Engler injector for an ASCS is $5,500.

  Heads $8,000

  Block 5-$7,000 like you said depending on what you want done to it

  Gear drive $699  Front cover $350

  Oil pump $1,300-$2,200 depending on which brand you go with

 

  Hope this helps



MandGRacing96
June 11, 2018 at 11:40:16 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 213
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Posted By: Wesmar on June 11 2018 at 10:16:32 AM

  Top of the line Kinsler or Engler injector for an ASCS is $5,500.

  Heads $8,000

  Block 5-$7,000 like you said depending on what you want done to it

  Gear drive $699  Front cover $350

  Oil pump $1,300-$2,200 depending on which brand you go with

 

  Hope this helps



Wesmar, what do a set of heads cost for a 410?  I know you can do different things to them, I was wondering about a ball park figure.



kossuth
June 11, 2018 at 11:51:54 AM
Joined: 11/02/2013
Posts: 440
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Posted By: MandGRacing96 on June 11 2018 at 11:40:16 AM

Wesmar, what do a set of heads cost for a 410?  I know you can do different things to them, I was wondering about a ball park figure.



Did some looking and found that a single Brodix casting is $3100 from Summit, so $6200 for the pair. I can see it getting pretty expensiv. I would guess $10,000 gets a decent set of heads ready to go, but I wouldn’t be surprised at a 12-15,000 price tag. 



Wesmar
June 11, 2018 at 12:13:29 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 592
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Posted By: MandGRacing96 on June 11 2018 at 11:40:16 AM

Wesmar, what do a set of heads cost for a 410?  I know you can do different things to them, I was wondering about a ball park figure.



  Ballpark is around 9-$10,000



Wesmar
June 11, 2018 at 12:15:00 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 592
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Posted By: kossuth on June 11 2018 at 11:51:54 AM

Did some looking and found that a single Brodix casting is $3100 from Summit, so $6200 for the pair. I can see it getting pretty expensiv. I would guess $10,000 gets a decent set of heads ready to go, but I wouldn’t be surprised at a 12-15,000 price tag. 



 As I mentioned a complete set of ASCS heads are $8,000.  Give or take a couple hundred dollars.



highspeeddirt
June 11, 2018 at 03:13:29 PM
Joined: 01/06/2009
Posts: 141
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I have always wondered what if you just toss engine rules completely. Run whatever engine size and configuration you want. Would that help cost or just open pandoras box and things skyrocket.

 



cheroger
June 11, 2018 at 03:56:43 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 867
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Posted By: highspeeddirt on June 11 2018 at 03:13:29 PM

I have always wondered what if you just toss engine rules completely. Run whatever engine size and configuration you want. Would that help cost or just open pandoras box and things skyrocket.

 



If you combined the "run what you brung" with the "one engine only" rule, teams would be forced to build engines that also last, thus, reducing cost.



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
June 11, 2018 at 04:06:53 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1129
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Posted By: cheroger on June 11 2018 at 03:56:43 PM

If you combined the "run what you brung" with the "one engine only" rule, teams would be forced to build engines that also last, thus, reducing cost.



I can't believe a single engine per night rule helps that much. Maybe it does. 

I don't think anyone is changing engines now based on performance gains, but rather either a mechanical issue or potential for a mechanical issue. Maybe I'm wrong there though. 



kossuth
June 11, 2018 at 06:01:07 PM
Joined: 11/02/2013
Posts: 440
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Posted By: highspeeddirt on June 11 2018 at 03:13:29 PM

I have always wondered what if you just toss engine rules completely. Run whatever engine size and configuration you want. Would that help cost or just open pandoras box and things skyrocket.

 



Pandoras box.  We would immediately see 454+ small blocks that are super lightweight with titanium everywhere they can to lighten it up. You would only see this from the big money folks.  It would render ever other power plant immediately worthless and unable to compete. 





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